TRANSCRIPT

Elizabeth: Well, I’m saying the Dalai Lama‘s a pretty good–

Rinpoche: Pretty reasonable person.

Elizabeth: I think so.

Rinpoche: Pretty sane and pretty down-to-earth.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: Pretty practical. Pretty modern. Pretty jet-setting. And if he uses these ancient, primitive, raw techniques, there must be something to it.

Elizabeth: Yes. He used it repeatedly. That’s the point.

Rinpoche: He uses it all the time. All the Dalai Lamas use it.

Elizabeth: If he used it once, I don’t care. But if he uses it repeatedly, that has meaning. If he depends upon it, which obviously he does—

Rinpoche: He depends on it.

Elizabeth: Yes. So, you can’t just dismiss it out of hand if somebody you admire has had experiences with it that prove its value. That’s what I think.

Rinpoche: Yes.

Elizabeth: It still really shocked me. It shocked me, but just because it was just a glimpse of something that I’ve never seen. And I’ve seen a lot of stuff. I’ve just never seen anything like that. It’s a little bit like Indian rain dances to some extent. I mean the American Indian rain dances. There are rituals…

Rinpoche: Do you believe those work?

Elizabeth: No, I don’t. Because they’ve been rain dancing all over the place lately, we’re still having a big drought. If they do a rain dance and it rains, I’ll believe it works.

Rinpoche: Why would these American Indians be doing rain dances for thousands of years and it doesn’t work?

Elizabeth: Well, it must have worked sometimes, but it’s not working now.

Rinpoche: What would your explanation be that it doesn’t work now? So, you’re saying they do work, you do believe it, but it didn’t work this time?

Elizabeth: It could work and not work this time and that wouldn’t mean it doesn’t work. The fact it didn’t work this time is not proof that it doesn’t work.

Rinpoche: So, you do believe overall it does work?

Elizabeth: It could work. I don’t know if it does or if it doesn’t because I don’t know when they did the dance and when it rained and what the relationship with rain to dancing is, so I can’t make a judgment about it.

But do I believe it could work? Yes, kind of, I do. But I know for a fact it doesn’t work all the time because we have a drought and lots of Indians dancing, so I know it’s not a sure thing.

Rinpoche: Okay. That’s interesting. It’s interesting because I’m not thinking of you as right or wrong, I’m just thinking how you think about that. You see, factors for rain is natural. It’s totally meteorological. It’s totally natural.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: It is totally natural.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And it’s not raining these days is because of the climate change or global warming.

Elizabeth: Right. Exactly, that’s what I think.

Rinpoche: But you see, that’s why it’s not raining.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: But, if you had a little leprechaun whom you can command to get you a cup of water, and every time you snap your finger and the little leprechaun goes to get you water, isn’t he quite reliable?

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: It’s just an example. But if the source of the water ran out for the little leprechaun and he can’t…

Elizabeth: He can’t get the water.

Rinpoche: Yes…

Elizabeth: Oh, I see what you are saying. I see the parallel.

Rinpoche: Yes, and that’s not to convince you.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: It’s how I think.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Does that mean that the leprechaun doesn’t work?

Elizabeth: That means the leprechaun can’t work, which is different.

Rinpoche: Exactly!

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: So, Indian rain dances are similar to Tibetan pujas for rain. There are elementals, nature spirits that can influence the natural order of things to make things happen.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: But if the natural order of things is out of order, these beings can’t do it anymore.

Elizabeth: Can’t do it.

Rinpoche: So, when the Indians do their rain dance, their dance has nothing to do with the water. It has nothing to do with the sky, cumulus clouds, and liquid. It has nothing to do with that.

When they dance and make offerings, they sing, wear colourful costumes, they are pleasing a race of elementals who have been around on our earth for thousands of years before us who can go and change things to make the rain come.

The reason why the rain dances don’t work now is because the very things that these elementals use to create rain are gone because we destroyed the environment.

Elizabeth: Right. Understand.

Rinpoche: So, in that way, the rain dances don’t work anymore.

Elizabeth: Right. Right.

Rinpoche: That would explain why the very intelligent, practical American Indians would do this for thousands of years…

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Before the white man…

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And it is not a show, it is not a tourist thing.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: It must have worked.

Elizabeth: It must have worked.

Rinpoche: So why is it not working now? Either they are stupid, either it worked one out of 500 times and they go, “It works”, or it is just tradition. I believe that because when Tibetan Lamas do rain rituals, I have seen it, it works.

I have seen them stop rain. I have seen them make it during drought time.

And, what happens is their procedure according to the rites and rituals is not nature. It is the beings that can manipulate things around to make it happen. But if that part of nature is gone, forget it.

So, if there is an apple to be plucked, you can send these beings to pluck it. But if you remove the apple because of your selfishness, or globalisation, or because an apartment is being built on it, the orchard is gone. That elemental, that leprechaun, that spirit can’t bring it to you anymore.

Elizabeth: Right. Right.

Rinpoche: So, in that way, the rain dances did not work because the actual place where they make the rain fall is gone. And who did that? We did it.

Elizabeth: Yes. Yes. There has something to dance to and for.

Rinpoche: There is something. There has to be something to activate to get that water. The dance activates the elementals because elementals, for lack of a better word, elementals are pleased by no meat. Rain elementals, elementals that specifically create rain and weather, they don’t like meat. They don’t like the smell of meat. They don’t like the killing of meat and especially sea meats, meats that come from the water.

When you eat a lot of seafood, when you drain your area of sea animals, or hurt them or damage them or damage the sea environment, it disturbs these elementals a lot and sometimes they go away.

Another scenario is this, the rain clouds are there but it’s not enough due to global whatever.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And the elementals are gone. Because what do people do in California now? Native people around the world, internationally, universally, are known to respect nature.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Development and modern people are universally known to exploit and destroy nature.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Correct?

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, our dependence on rain now, Elizabeth, is there but not as much as before technology.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Because when it didn’t rain the whole race died. All the Indians died. Where did they go? There were no airplanes to migrate.

Elizabeth: Right. Right.

Rinpoche: Right?

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Some of the greatest migrations in the world is because of famine.

Elizabeth: Right. Right.

Rinpoche: So, my point is what? It is, sometimes when you do things over and over that disturb these elementals, they go away.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Therefore, when you do a ritual or the dance, there is nothing.

Elizabeth: There is nothing more. Yeah.

Rinpoche: There is nothing there to activate.

Elizabeth: Right. Yes.

Rinpoche: These elementals like milk. They don’t like it when you hurt reptiles, specifically. They don’t like it when you hurt animals of the water. They don’t like it when you pee and desecrate nature. They don’t like when you eat meat or kill, especially the smell of meat. The more you do that, the more you drive these elementals away, the more.

Now, my dear, what happens is this – when you drive those elementals away, doing

the rain dance is quite spiritual; it’s quite religious, it’s quite mystical; it’s quite primitive; it’s quite raw; it’s very magical.

So when you start doing the rain dance and they don’t work anymore, then, a rain dancer quits. He goes and works at McDonald’s. Another one quits, he goes and works at 7-Eleven. Another quits, they work at Fotomat.

And then, pretty much, you don’t have the rain dances anymore, and the remaining people who are doing it is just for tourism because it looks exotic.

Elizabeth: Right. Right.

Rinpoche: Isn’t the spirituality gone?

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: And that’s how spirituality disappears.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: You see, because people don’t understand how the ritual works and what it is affecting, and they just say I need empirical knowledge, I need scientific proof. Look, we have been existing for thousands of years without any scientific proof of anything.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: It is only the last 200 years we have leaped this far. And according to the ufologists it is knowledge from another planet.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: But, anyway, before this how did people survive? They were sick, they had cancer, they made long journeys. People went on boats that went for months, they didn’t know what happened, but they could find different psychic abilities to do it.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, back then, you know Elizabeth, for better or for worse, people developed these arts of fortune-telling, divination, oracular abilities, prediction of the future, channelling, magic, rituals, because they didn’t have technology to rely on.

Elizabeth: Right. Exactly.

Rinpoche: That is why it was more developed.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: With technology, your mind instead of going inside to develop that power, you go to Google.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: What happens? Spirituality is lost.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: Now what is the damage behind that? What is the damage behind going, doing intensive Manjushri retreats to develop clairvoyance when you can just go on Google and look for it?

The difference is this, because attached to spirituality is also the doctrine of compassion, the doctrine of love, of karma, cause and effect, the doctrine of being a good person. That is also lost.

So, it is not just the ritual that’s lost. It is everything attached behind the ritual. And when people lose that, they become modern and they require evidence and Google is their refuge.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: That is when the depression sets in. Can you see the correlation?

Elizabeth: Yes, I do. I see it, yes.

Rinpoche: So, when people say, “Well, I don’t want to do dharma anymore”, “I want to pursue whatever”, “I want to get married”, “I want to have twenty kids”, “I want to travel the world”. Fine, you can do it.

“Don’t judge me”. I am not judging you.

But you see, when you don’t do dharma anymore, you don’t study dharma, you don’t practice, you don’t put dharma into your mind, you don’t transform your mind, and then the ritual part is the first thing to go.

“Well, I don’t want to do the pujas anymore”, “I don’t want to do the prayers”, “I don’t want to do my sadhana”, “I don’t want to do my mantras anymore”, “I don’t want to do my retreat anymore”. Fine! The teacher will always say “fine” because the teacher is kind.

Rinpoche: But once you lose that, the other part will start going. Why would the other part go? Because the rituals are connected with the learning.

So, when you see people stop doing retreats, when you see people stop doing meditations, stop doing their sadhanas, and they are up and down about it. You will see them degenerating in their practice. And they will eventually go away. Why is that? Because they are connected.

Because you’d rather have the instant tie from a job or someone who likes you on Facebook “Like”. You’d rather have the recognition from an instant “like”. Why is that? Because it is effortless “like”, it is effortless recognition, effortless recognition of who you are.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Right?

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, you put some interesting, deep, philosophical meme on your Facebook and you get twenty “likes”, that’s easier than going into meditation, developing compassion to have people say, “Oh, you are a great person”, because nobody sees that, nobody recognises that.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, you think, “What is wrong with that?” There is nothing wrong with that but long term there is. What is wrong with that long term? Because in the long term you have to keep up impressing people to like your things and, in the end, you develop nothing.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And then what happens? When you go to the secular world, you do everything secular, and nothing but secular. Nothing! “I am not going to do retreat”, “I am not going to meditate on Manjushri”, “I am not going to recite the mantras”, “I am not going to do the sadhana”, “I am not going to hang around my guru”, “I am not going to do any dharma work”, “I am not going to help the temple”, “I am not going to find donations”, “I am not going to do anything”, “I am just going to go and pay bills and live my life and work”.

Fine! And that is okay. Doing that is like going to Facebook and getting an instant “like”. Instantly people say, “Oh, good for you”. “You’ve got a job. Good for you”. “Wow, new haircut. Good for you”. “Wow, new outfit. Good for you”. “Oh, you ate this”, “Oh, you had that food”, “You went to China? Wow”.

Elizabeth: (laughs)

Rinpoche: You get that, but you have to keep doing that. And as you fade, as you get wrinkles, as you get older and you are lonelier and lonelier and lonelier because all these people who praised you are not going to be there when you are sick. All these people who liked you on your Facebook are not going to be there when you get old. All these people who admired you went to China are not going to be there when you’re financially strapped, or when you are depressed, or down.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, you are barking up the wrong tree. When you do the rituals, you do the sadhana, you do the prayers, you do the practice, and you keep yourself motivated, you know what happens? That is the ritual part. Then you also do the study part. And then you do the work part. When you do that, that spirituality pervades you. When that spirituality pervades you, you will be focused on developing on the inside.

Elizabeth: Right. Well, you are giving yourself what you were going outside to find.

Rinpoche: Correct. What you were going outside to find, you will find immediately, but it won’t last. Because it is fake.

Elizabeth: That’s right. It is fake.

Rinpoche: Yeah, it is fake. I am agreeing with you.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: It is fake. It is instant.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: It is like putting on a lot of makeup, doing surgery, and then everybody says, “you are beautiful” but you know you are not.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And you know you’re not going to last.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And you still want to enjoy. You still go clubbing, you go out, you get laid, you have fun. You have boyfriends, girlfriends and feel like, “Oh see, I am admired”.

And you are very stupid. And you know why? Because what will keep them there when you fade, which is soon, is you. And you put that time toward your face, not your inside. You put your time towards your job, and getting a car and getting a haircut, not developing the inside. So, who is going to be attracted to you?

Elizabeth: Other people who do the same thing.

Rinpoche: Other people who do the same thing, who will disgust you in the end.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: Because you will say “That is so fake”, and then you’ll turn around and say, “but that was what I attracted.” You attract who you are. And if you attract absolutely nobody, it is suffering. And if you attract somebody, it is going to be suffering, sooner or later.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, that rain dance thingy that I explained to you and how it connects to the deterioration of spirituality because when they say, “Oh, their rain dance doesn’t work”, they are right. It doesn’t. But there are other factors.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Now, when you say the rain dance doesn’t work, it erodes into the beautiful American Indian spirituality culture. Well maybe we don’t have to respect nature. Well maybe we don’t need to do the purifications anymore.

Elizabeth: But I’d never say the rain dances do not respect nature!

Rinpoche: Not you. No, I am talking about why spirituality erodes.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: And I am using American Indians as an example.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Not you.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Why does it erode in our minds? In modern world?

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: And so, what happens is, then we are not going to do the purifications and if you read about the rain dance, this is nothing to do with you, they have to go through a lot of rituals, initiations, purifications and time to develop that power.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: It isn’t just– you wear, you dance, and it happens. They must not eat. They have to go on journeys, take certain types of hallucinogens, go into this hut where they steam where they push out the impurifications, abstain from sex, wear certain outfits, learn from their elders, not eat this, not do this in public, there is a whole ritual to develop that ability to communicate with the elemental to get that rain here. So, if any of that is gone, you are not going to get the rain. That’s one.

The second thing is, when the rain dance doesn’t work, the psyche, the human mind, and the audience will think, “Well, then the whole culture is just for show.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, let’s not do the purifications. Let’s not do the retreats. Let’s not do the meditations. Let’s not do diet restrictions. Let’s not do the mantras. Let’s not do the prayers. Let’s not follow the teacher. Let’s not respect the elders. Let’s not do the nature stuff. And then because why? The rain dance didn’t work!

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: So, if you do one Manjushri meditation and you don’t get this orgasmic transformation that makes you one with the universe, you don’t quit!

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Because there are other factors.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: And that is what stupid people do. Stupid people want instant satisfaction and instant “like”, and they quit what is more important. And that is why spirituality is dying. It is dying.

Elizabeth: Well, I think so. Yes, according to all the surveys, it is.

Rinpoche: In America, the greater the technology…

Elizabeth: The lesser the prayers…

Rinpoche: …spirituality will become less. True spirituality. Not go to church, go to the temple, just pray for money. True spirituality, where the other part of the ritual – which is transformation of the mind to be a better human being, to take on sufferings, to have benevolence, have compassion that “you cut me, don’t cut them,” and to be happy about taking on suffering – will be gone.

When that is gone, depression will set in. Because why? Google is not going to help you. Your job is not going to help you. Your boyfriend is not going to help you. Your parents can’t help you. And that’s the danger.

So, that is why certain students in the past have dropped out. They don’t realise that. And they go and do their thing, and what do you see on their Facebook? Oh, they travelled to this country, that country, they ate, they slept.

Then, “Wow, what a big deal”. Everybody likes it. “I wish I could do that”. Of course, you wish you could do that because you are just as shallow as that. If you are just as shallow as that you will like that. So, what is wrong with being shallow? What is wrong? It’s that it is not going to take away what you are running away from.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: As simple as that. “Oh look, I left Tsem Rinpoche and I am doing a great job now”, “I am doing a new job”, “I’ve got a new girlfriend”, “I’ve got a new apartment”, “Aren’t I happy”, “God, when I was in that cult, I wasn’t happy”. Sure, you weren’t happy, because you didn’t go all the way with it.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: Well, are you happy now? “Of course, I am happy. I’ve got this great girlfriend”. Is she going to stay? Is she going to stay great? Are you going to stay great?

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: Is she going to stay with you? Are you going to be great? And how many trips can you go on? How much food can he eat? How much of it are you going to put on Facebook and get approval from the public, the people who are not going to be there for you? When you get whatever, you’re going to need me again.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: But you know what? You didn’t have to need me. If you stayed on, you could have taken care of yourself. “Well, should I stay on till I am sick as a dog and I need help?” No, if you stayed on and had a balance, your life would have been happy. Why give up one for something else?

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Why not balance it? And that is how spirituality disappears. But people don’t understand why it doesn’t rain anymore when they do the rain dance.

Elizabeth: That is a very good one. It’s good.

Rinpoche: You like that?

Elizabeth: Yes.

Rinpoche: Why?

Elizabeth: Well, it just makes sense that it comes around. I like the circular nature of it.

Rinpoche: You see, dear, you are a smart girl. If I told you, and I just told you rudimentary how rain dances work, you’ll just go, “Oh yeah, it makes sense”. But if you are not explained that, you’ll just say it doesn’t work. And you’ll have all kinds of ups and downs. But you see, that explanation came from spiritual practice.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: If you study the scriptures, you will study what Buddha says, it tells you about those beings. So, once you give up, all that is lost. What do you have left? You only have Google. You only have your job. You only have your partner. You only have your parents who will be gone in a few years. That is all you have.

But if you have Manjushri, Vajrayogini, Dorje Shugden, your guru, your dharma brothers and sisters, you have a centre and you have something else. You have that. You have all of that. And the things that you learn and do within that organisation, what you achieve is permanent.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Mental quiescence, equilibrium, compassion, kindness, wisdom, that will never rot. But people who are not patient enough to do it, they are too lazy to be persistent and they like to blame somebody else. And then they say it’s everybody’s fault. It is pure laziness. And that is how spirituality dies. It doesn’t die because it is not effective. It dies because we are too dependent on technology to entertain our minds constantly.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: You know all the time we spend on the cell phones, googling, looking, making friends online who will never be your friends, if we had put that to our meditation, our mind would be Google.

That’s when we meditate, we will know. When you astral travel, you can see. And if there is no internet, if your computer gets taken away, you get old, you are not able to do it anymore, whatever, you still can go in and see. And that can only be developed by spirituality.

So, people go away from spirituality for the wrong reasons. And you know what? People who really cannot do it, sometimes they just don’t have the karma for it.

But my answer to them is not to drop it completely. Have a balance. Do 50-50. Because if you do 50-50, it’s like having a hundred bucks: 50 dollars go for savings, the other 50 you enjoy yourself. As opposed to all 100 goes for fun and when you are old, you have nothing.

Elizabeth: That makes sense, too.

Rinpoche: Have a balance. Why does it have to be all or nothing? And that is how people lose their spirituality. That is how they lose their lamas, their gurus, they lose their yidams, they lose their practice, they lose their deities, they lose their equilibrium. They think they’re going to be happy.

I am not mocking them or putting them down. I am not happy when they are unhappy. But look, everyone is unhappy.

Elizabeth: Right.

Rinpoche: Technology is not helping. We’re just getting to places faster, learning things faster, and getting information faster. It doesn’t equate to happiness. It’s an instant high. It’s like drugs and alcohol. It’s an instant high, but you have to take more and more to keep it up.

Elizabeth: Right. And it is still doesn’t get you where you want to go.

Rinpoche: Exactly, but dharma will. If you practice Buddhism correctly, it will. Does that make sense? You don’t have to agree to Buddhism, I am talking about the logic of what I’ve just shared.

Elizabeth: It totally makes sense.

Rinpoche: Good!

This transcript has been edited for clarity and ease of understanding.

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