Vegetarianism: Catholic and Hindu views
Below is a video of a discussion between two religious teachers from two different religions…
Jean Danielou (left) gave his opinion about vegetarianism from the Catholic Christian perspective. He is a historian, cardinal and theologian of the Christian faith.
With a doctorate in theology, his expertise placed him as an expert on the Second Vatican Council. This was at the request of Pope John XXIII, and in 1969, he was made cardinal by Pope VI.
3 years later, he succeeded Cardinal Eugène-Gabriel-Gervais-Laurent Tissera and went on to serve as one of the 40 members at L’Académie Française (an institute discussing matters on the French language).
He wrote many published books, some of which are still in print today.
Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (right), or respectfully known as Prabhupada (which in Bengali is an honorific title meaning “Lord’s Feet”), is the other person in the video, who represents the Hindu perspective on vegetarianism.
Prabhupada founded the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKON) aka “Hare Krishna Movement” in 1966, and brought Gaudiya Vaishnava theology (a form of Hinduism) to the West. He graduated from a prestigious college, Scottish Church College in Kolkata, India, and before becoming an influential religious scholar, he owned a small pharmaceutical business.
During his life, he translated over 60 volumes of classic Vedic scriptures into English! He was known to be very charismatic and it was through his verbal teachings and his highly acclaimed books that he initiated thousands of Americans to Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
His teacher (Guru Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura) was the one who told him that if he ever had the finances to publish books, that he should. He did so during his life and wrote books of such high standard that professors from Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, Oxford and other top universities around the world all praised his works. One of his books, ‘Bhavagad-Gita As It Is’ was translated into 80 different languages.
Do listen to what they both have to say regarding killing animals for food… watch it, then tell me what you think.
I find their conversation interesting to say the least. Tsem Rinpoche
Or view the video on the server at:
https://video.tsemtulku.com/videos/TheIlluminatiSlaughterHousesMustBeStopped.mp4
Brahma, the Hindu God of creation and Dorje Shugden. Click on image to enlarge or click here for more beautiful thangkas.
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This discussion is interesting. It shows the reasoning why people think they are superior and eat meat without a second thought. We are brought up thinking that the cow, the sheep, the goat, the chicken are of less value, their feelings are not important and they are meant for us to be used and eaten.
Now many years later, we can seen how the treatment of animals has gotten worse over time and nobody I know would like to eat those animals who have been caged all their life, mistreated, beaten and and and… Not to talk about the many diseases that came up because of our greed and exploitation of animals. We like to buy organic, homegrown, animals who enjoyed green grass and what not, but in the end, no animal jumps on your plate and wants to be killed for your meal.
Yes, a cow gives milk because she is a mother. Look into the eyes of an animal you know and tell me they don’t feel joy, happiness and sadness. They love their babies just like we love our human babies.
Personally, I was a meat eater when I grew up and I began eating vegetarian only as a challenge to myself. Only when I listened to H.E. Tsem Rinpoche I began to think of the suffering of the animals and that is is wrong to kill them. I am very happy to be vegetarian now and I wish that more people become aware of the unnecessary suffering of animals and the cruel treatment which they have to suffer for their whole life. This video gave me a better understanding of why many don’t challenge their views. They grew up with an information that is wrong and unfair. Many children don’t want to eat animals they known intuitively and even those they don’t know. They can feel it is wrong. In wish we all rethink and eat the many healthy, safe and tasty alternatives to meat and fish.
Different religion have different views about vegetarianism. Interesting debate between these 2 religious maters. Each of them debate what was right in their point of view on vegetarianism. While religions around the world share a quest for spirituality, they vary in their perception that respecting all forms of life is integral to that quest. Many do believe that no living entity should be harmed or killed, especially for food.
Hinduism’s encourages a vegetarian diet, though not all Hindus are vegetarian. All animals are sacred to Hindus, but one stands out among all the rest–the cow. Causing unnecessary pain and death produces bad karma as they believed
Catholics inevitably have different opinions on the ethical nature of eating meat. Meat is considered desirable, eating meat is necessary to feed the hungry beings.
But whatever it is ,all animals meant for food deserved much better than that. They do have feelings like humans. Why are they need to suffer and killed to feed others beings. When we have a choice ,choose to be a vegetarian, to stay healthy.We know that the effects of animal-based foods causes harm on human health.
Thank you Rinpoche for sharing…..interesting explanation on both sides.
All living beings have feelings. If we don’t want to create pain and suffering on other living beings then we should stop eating meat. While Christianity may think that eating meat is necessary to feed human who are hungry, I could not agree with this as human has other options. We can eat many other foods without killing or creating any pain to the animals. Therefore, it really depends on our choices. If we care enough for other living beings then we will not want to hurt them.
Thank you so much for 2 great master debating on vegetarianism.I think they use a very skilful way to explain to us why should go for vegetarian diet.Yea it is true that as a human we can eat grains,milk,vegetables,fruits to survive then why we still choose to eat flesh.
Yajur Veda says: “You must not use your God-given body for killing God’s creatures, whether they are human, animal or whatever” (Yajur Veda, 12.32).
Hindus believe all living beings are sacred because they are parts of God, and should be treated with respect and compassion. This is because the soul can be reincarnated into any form of life.
I think that religion is a very beautiful thing, all religions have one thing in common and that is they never teach us to commit sins or perform any activities that harm others and ourselves, sometimes it just depends on how we look at it.
Plants are alive but have a different consciousnesses and it is not the same as eating meat. I am shocked by what the Catholic said. This is very sad and extremely illogical and not spiritual at all.
Prabhupada tells a very good point that we have 7 mothers, and we will not harm any of the mothers. I think it is beautiful why Hindus do not eat cow because cows give us milk, just like our mother. How could we kill our mother? And I like what he said about if we can survive without eating animal’s flesh, then why we still want to eat meat? This is so true! But Jean Danielou told that human are more important than animals, animals and plants are not real beings, so we can eat them WHEN WE ARE HUNGRY. Even this doesn’t answer the question that Prabhupada asked.
The 7 mothers teachings is beautiful. And it is kinda match with what Buddhism says. Every sentient beings are our mother in the past lives, therefore we treat them well and we don’t eat our mothers. If all of us can practice this teaching, then we will become a good person.
If one believe that GOD is almighty, why would one seek pleasure upon the sufferings of other beings that GOD has created? Not one being is more superior than GOD, and on this basis, how can human being claim superiority upon other beings?
If one believes in karma, there is no excuse for one feed on flesh of other beings, as the flesh of beings are the flesh of our mothers of previous lives.
By allowing ourselves to claim that we, as human race, are more superior than other beings, that we are entitled to seek pleasure / happiness upon the suffering of other beings, we ease our mind into developing discrimination towards other human beings as well, especially those fellow human beings who are not in favour to us. Thus the potential of us causing sufferings to other beings escalates as we have restricted our compassion and love only to beings we perceived of the same kind. And from that mindset mankind has justified many inhumane and cruelty acts upon other human beings i.e. the Nazis believe that they have to exterminate the Jews because to the Nazis, the Jews are considered as pest, not human beings; 800,000 of Tutsi ethnics in Rwanda has been killed by another Hutu Ethnics due to hatred, of which same goes to the genocide committed by Serbs in Bosnia.
As a food for thought, it is said that, “Karmic seeds never lose their potency”. Being born in the animal realm is condemnable enough, not considering the sufferings they have to bear through lifetimes of fear, stupidity, hunger, tortures, cold heat etc.,etc. Contemplating on such sufferings would make anyone remorseful, and to have a sense of mercy and empathy on the sufferers. All animals are said to be living beings, irrespective of their level of classification. They all have consciosuness or senses and want happiness (but not sufferings) as much as we humans do. Killing a human being, a dinasaur or a cow down to an ant is said to be sinful in a religous aspect, irrespective of whether it is of higher or lower category of birth. Thereafter, enjoying and consuming their flesh for that purpose, would doubly solidify the sinful act already done by whoever eating the animal flesh. In the golden words of Lord Buddha ,”All tremble at punishment. All fear death.(Life is dear to all) Comparing others with oneself, one should neither kill nor cause to kill.”
Thank you Rinpoche for introducing this Video and subject into your Blog for us. It is very interesting to note the analytical minds of both people of different faiths. Cardinal Jean Danielou of the Catholic Christian Church. He is very well versed in Theology and also very intellectual. Swami Prabhupada is a Hindu and founder of a Hare Krishna Movement called International Society for Consciousness (SKON). He had translated 60 volumes from classic Vedic Scriptures into English and was known to be very Charismatic and has drawn lots of Americans to his movement. At his Guru’s advice he had published and translated into 80 different languages. The point here is the logic and explanation why we should substitute meat eating with vegn. Swami had explained very clearly why vegn should be adopted and animal slaughter house be closed. With Swami’s logic and clear explanation maybe the Catholic Cardinal may even be influence to go vegetarian.
It is an intriguing debate between two faiths and I really like how the Cardinal just sweepingly say that animals and plants don’t actually exist. It is an archaic belief but aren’t animals and plants made by God and aren’t we made by God too? Shouldn’t we have mutual respect between one creation of God and another? It wouldn’t be too good if the animals developed intelligence and decide that they are ‘God’s chosen one’ and start enslaving the rest of mankind to be livestock and for food. That would a rude awakening for us.
On the other hand, the Hindu said that cows are sacred by the virtue that they give us milk. Well, so too do most mammals. Why is it that cows are venerated over others? Why is killing of ‘lower animals’ alright? I don’t know the Vedas well but there must be another basis to this exception. At least, the Hindus believe in future lives and karma, which is the perfect basis for non-killing of other beings.
Just a reminder regarding the quotation you made in the last paragraph. It is agreed upon that all human are vegetarians when God created us, and so are the animals. However, after the flood in Noah’s time it is widely accepted that God made an exemption and has since then allowed us to consume meat.
If you have any doubts, you can read the discussion from here
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2147/were-adam-and-eve-vegetarians
In my view, this Catholic and Hindu both have a ways to go, in their evolution of respecting the rights of all animals. The Cardinal, of course, has the longer journey, since he has no compassion for animals, as he makes clear in stating: “We think that animals and plants are not real beings. Therefore, if killing them is to give food to men, women and children who are hungry, it is okay.”
The Hindu states that “Cow-killing is the greatest sin.” However, he doesn’t mind keeping female cows pregnant their entire lives, so that he can drink their milk,” asking: “How can I deny a cow is my mother?” He adds that if animals must be killed for food, they should be the “lower animals. . .now cows.”
As a Hindu, he understands rebirth and, therefore, that all beings have been his mother infinite times. . .not just cows. How can he deny this? Therefore, to eat any of them in the animal realm should be equal sins, if he’s using Aristotelian logic (or its Eastern equivalent).
If either Hindu or Catholic spent time on a dairy farm, they’d see pregnant cows dropping calves regularly, about half of which are male. As only several males are required to service the herd, the owner of that dairy farm normally kills all the other male calves not needed.
Further, cow’s-milk products are not designed for human beings. Rather, they’re designed to bring a calf to 400 lbs. in six months, to build a 1600-lb. beast with four stomachs to digest that milk in, plus a casein-phosphoprotein digestive enzyme humans don’t have. Cow’s milk is far too heavy in both protein and short-chain fatty acids for human bodies to assimilate. Thus, if you think you still need milk, the move to goat’s milk would be the first wise step (as a goat is nearly the size of a human), but wiser (and more compassionate) still is the move to organic soy milk, which I use daily. Almond milk would be another alternative, although far more expensive.
Know that humans are the only species on our planet which continues to take milk after weaned. It wouldn’t be so bad if it came from human mothers, but I doubt anyone is contemplating human-milk farms on a nationwide scale. What a hilariously sad concept, and one which should make us all think about keeping female cows or even goats pregnant their entire lives, if nothing else. For those who can stomach it, pull up and view the process of just how cow’s milk becomes available to humans.
As for the Catholic Cardinal, he needs to visit a factory farm and watch the slaughter up close and personally. . .of what he’s been apparently eating, with no qualms, his entire life (serving as a role-model for others still attached to eating meat). Further, he needs to study his “Bible” more carefully, especially the line the Hindu was perhaps trying to subtly remind him of when their ‘debate’ began:
“And God said, behold, I have given you every herb-bearing seed which is upon the face of the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree-yielding seed; to you, it shall be for meat.”–Genesis 1:29
Animals are God’s creatures, not human property, nor utilities, nor resources, nor commodities, but precious beings in God’s sight. … Christians whose eyes are fixed on the awfulness of crucifixion are in a special position to understand the awfulness of innocent suffering. The Cross of Christ is God’s absolute identification with the weak, the powerless, and the vulnerable, but most of all with unprotected, undefended, innocent suffering.
– Rev. Andew Linzey, Professor of Theology, Oxford University
For more information please go to: Vegetarian Network Victoria (http://www.vnv.org.au)
How I know why people will eat meat for pleasure. This is because from their concept, human is more superior than animals. There is no right or wrong, just different concept. I personally don’t like the concept, but that is just the way it is.
I am just wondering, if one day comes some aliens which they think they are more superior than us, and start killing us for food, then how?
It is important to find a common ground in order for a conversation to be taken place. Otherwise, it benefits no one, and the feeling of being defeated or the pride of ego for winning will increase. Thus, we will keep picking on the differences and never come to understand each other.
I think a lot of eating meat comes down to habituation (as do other things)People follow the traditions and practices they grew up with as these feel most normal to them.
So if your parents ate meat you will too, without even questioning it.
Until one day, if you are lucky, you might question those values and traditions.
There are no bad people, just ignorant ones, myself included.
Very very interesting. I understand very well the part where Prabhupada mentioned that we will not understand God let alone love God if we continue to sin by eating meat.
In our case, how can we claim to understand, respect and love the Buddha if we continue to eat meat when the Buddha has said that we do not need to eat meat to live.
Very interesting video indeed.
WITHOUT REBIRTH AND KARMA
It shows how within a view of the existence that does not encompass rebirth and karma, one cannot see all beings as mothers, but only see beings as “superior” or “inferiors” through the qualities of their physical bodies.
WITH REBIRTH AND KARMA
On the other hand, with rebirth and karma understood and acknowledged, there is no way one would engage in meat-eating (or any other non-virtuous action) without being “self-destructive”.
AGAIN WITHOUT REBIRTH AND KARMA
Then, in finality, even if we take rebirth and karma out of the understanding of reality, it still does not make sense to slaughter for food. Why? Because another being suffer. Period.
Physical pain, or any pain, whether it is experienced by me, by my brither or by a chicken is exactly the same from the point of view of the being that experiences the pain, so why would we impose our conceptual-ideological understandings over this.
There is no difference in the anguish, in the stress, in the pain, in the panic of feeling death approaching, of feeling its blood leaving one’s body, of gasping for air and suffocating, of feeling a knife entering through one’s flesh, of feeling captured and electrocuted. Why do we force ourselves to think that it is ok for a chicken, when we know it is not acceptable for a loved being, a brother or even a pet.
There is no doifference but the relationship we have with this other being, one is for company, one is for food.
But if the suffering is the same, why do we feel compassion in one case and we salivate at the thought of a meal in another case.
It is delusional to think that there is a difference, because there is no difference.
And since we have a choice, since we know we don’t NEED to eat meat, we kill without any good reason. Only by attachment to taste.
If we are in the middle of winter in china 18th century with nothing else left to eat but a chicken and a starving family, we have a case study. But we are not in that situation, we are in a fine restaurant and we must choose between the ruccola salad or the wagyu beef and we choose the beef.
Sa Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says this:
“Human being’s main business is to understand what is GOD and to love him. But if the human being keeps eating flesh and corpses, then the human being cannot understand what is GOD, and there is no purpose in loving him”
If can’t even defeat our attachment to taste, if this attachment weighs more in the balance against the DAILY activity of killing others, then how can we even contemplate that we would be able to conquer even stronger delusions? How can we love GOD and our attachments at the same time?