The 14th Dalai Lama’s prayer to Dorje Shugden

Feb 4, 2016 | Views: 28,268
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Dear friends around the world,

What is interesting is His Holiness the Dalai Lama is considered as the incarnation of the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara, therefore a highly realized and attained being. Whether the Dalai Lama is 10 years old or 70 years old, his mindstream is the same and attained. Attainments cannot go backwards and at any age or any lifetime (incarnation) as he is highly attained. If this is the case when His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama composed the prayer to Dorje Shugden years ago, his mindstream was the same mindstream as now. So how can he make a mistake that back then he saw Dorje Shugden as a superior being and now he doesn’t? I don’t mean disrespect to His Holiness the Dalai Lama with this, but examining the situation only.

If Dalai Lama has been worshipping Dorje Shugden for decades, consulted his oracles, composed prayers for Dorje Shugden, then how can he finally and suddenly see Dorje Shugden as negative? How could Dorje Shugden have ‘fooled’ or ‘misled’ such a high being as the Dalai Lama for so many years? That does not make sense. Since Dalai Lama is a highly realized being, he should be able to see Dorje Shugden as a superior being or a negative being from the very first time they ‘met’. This ability is inherent in highly attained beings such as H.H. the Dalai Lama. If we are to hypothetically say His Holiness the Dalai Lama can make mistakes, then this puts us all in a quandary because he saw Shugden as superior in earlier years but later as malevolent. Does this make sense? Because if he can make a mistake once, he can hypothetically make another one. So the ban and his current negative views about Dorje Shugden perhaps can be wrong? I am just presenting some hypothetics.

People with clairvoyance when they come across a formless being, they can tell immediately if the being is good or negative. This does not change. It does not make sense the Dalai Lama saw Dorje Shugden as a very high being in Dungkar Monastery and then later in 1996 suddenly he said Dorje Shugden is not good and then institute the ban against Dorje Shugden? That would mean Domo Geshe Rinpoche who is highly realized is wrong too and for many incarnations wrong also? And hundreds of other highly realized practitioners are wrong also for 400 years? How could Dorje Shugden have fooled so many for so long until 1996? Does not make sense at all. Domo Geshe Rinpoche worshipped Dorje Shugden for many incarnations. His incarnations never went wrong or to the three lower realms, but returns again and again. This clearly proves Dorje Shugden’s practice does not send us to the three lower realms. How can Dorje Shugden be a superior being when His Holiness was younger and then later became a malevolent being needing a ban against his worship? Not logical.

This is the prayer to Dorje Shugden as composed by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama at Dungkar Monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche. It is good to recite daily or when in need of help. You can see in the prayer His Holiness enthrones Dorje Shugden as the “supreme collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities and requests to grant siddhis” (attainments). Ordinary spirits cannot grant siddhis therefore in this prayer, Dalai Lama recognized Dorje Shugden as a superior being who can grant two types of siddhis. Ordinary and extra-ordinary siddhis. His Holiness surely could not be tricked by a spirit. His Holiness saw Dorje Shugden as a superior being embodying the gurus and Protective Deities who can grant two types of siddhis.

Tsem Rinpoche



A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings

By the Supreme Victor, the Great 14th Dalai Lama


Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas
Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara (Paradise or pure land), and so forth!

Prostrating with devotion of body, speech, and mind
I confess all mistakes and faults in which
Out of delusion, I have contradicted your holy mind:
Accept with forbearance and show your smiling face!

Arising from the sport of non-dual bliss and void
Are offerings and torma of flesh and blood heaped like a mountain
First portions of milk, yogurt, beer and tea swirling like the ocean
Auspicious signs and substances and various animals
Peaceful and wrathful ornaments, enemy-destroying weapons and armor
Amassed samaya substances, outer, inner, and secret, without exception!

Having fulfilled your heart commitment and purified degeneration
By making these actually arranged and visualized offerings
Increase Lozang the Victorious One’s Teachings
And the life span and activities of the Teachings’ upholders!
Further the happiness of beings in the Gaden [Podrang] dominion!

Especially pacify all harm to us, the yogis and entourages
That arises because of previous karma and immediate conditions
And spontaneously accomplish, just as we wish
All good things, both spiritual and temporal!

Grind to dust without remainder
Enemy hordes that think and act perversely
Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people
With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!

Especially, cause the saffron-clad community of Dungkar Monastery
Brightly beautiful in bonds of pure morality
To soar the path of immortal liberation
On unified wings of Sutra and Tantra!

In brief, we enthrone you, O Deity, as the supreme
Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!
From densely gathered clouds of the four activities
Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!



This, A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings, entitled Melody of the Unceasing Vajra ’s composition was urged, not only by the vajra prophecy of the great emanated Dharmapala himself, but also on behalf of the general community by the master of the Dungkar Dratsang and all of its officers, with offerings. Accordingly, the one called Holder Of The White Lotus, Bearer of the Buddhadharma, Ngawang Losang Tenzin Gyatso Sisum Wangyur Tsungpa Mepa De (14th Dalai Lama) composed it at Dungkar Monastery with spontaneous auspiciousness.

All benefit and bliss! Siddhi Rastu

Domo Geshe Rinpoche, at whose Dunkar Monastery His Holiness composed these inspiring verses, was one of the greatest Mahasiddhas in Tibetan history. A greater example of saintliness and, mind you, non-sectarian compassion would be hard to find. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang said of him, “We are exactly the same”, and Domo Geshe put his Monasteries in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s care before he passed on. The 13th Dalai Lama praised him as Je Tsongkhapa incarnate. Both the 13th and the 14th Dalai Lama praised Dungkar Monastery’s oracle, through which they obtained very valuable advice in difficult times.

This prayer shows beyond the shadow of a doubt the enlightened origin and the “holy mind” of the King Protector as seen by His Holiness. No “ghost” can come from Tushita and Kechara, Maitreya and Vajrayogini’s pureland. No “ghost” can cause you to “soar the path of immortal liberation on unified wings of Sutra and Tantra”!

(Extracted from the internet)


This is the last picture of the His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama taken in Tibet prior to the cultural revolution. The year was 1951, His Holiness Dalai Lama was at Dungkar Gonpa (Dungkar Monastery), in the Chumbi Valley near the southern Tibetan border with Sikkim and Bhutan, poised for a possible flight to India.

Surrounded by many of his entourage and the Kalon who fled with him, His Holiness blesses a golden urn containing sacred relics of Gautama Buddha, which the Maha Bodhi Society of Sri Lanka has brought for him to sanctify. It was here at Dungkar Monastery of Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s, His Holiness Dalai Lama composed the prayer to Dorje Shugden.

(Extracted from the internet)


After Domo Geshe Rinpoche Ngawang Kalsang the founder passed away in 1936, the Dungkar Monastery’s administration requested the central Tibetan government for permission to embalm his body. Although only the bodies of the Dalai Lamas and the Panchen Lamas were customarily embalmed and sealed in large stupas, the request was granted. The Regent Reting Rinpoche’s decree read, “In Southern Tibet, including Sikkim, etc., Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s activities were exactly like those of Je Tsong Khapa. In accordance, we will allow Rinpoche’s body to be preserved.” The holy stupa was consecrated in 1938 by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche Dorje Chang and remained an object of veneration until it, along with the entire Dungkar Monastery, was destroyed in the Cultural Revolution.



Under the direction of Domo Geshe Rinpoche the Dungkar Monastery became the seat of the famous and respected Dorje Shugden oracle that was consulted by people from all over Tibet. At the crossroads between India and Tibet, Dungkar Monastery also became known as a stopping place for most Tibetan and foreign dignitaries who were on their way to and from Lhasa. Thus, Dungkar Monastery was open to international contact in a way that was unusual for Tibet at that time.

When His Holiness the Thirteenth Dalai Lama returned from India in 1912 he stopped in Domo area, and a meeting took place between His Holiness and Domo Geshe Rinpoche at Kangyur Lhakang in Galingkang. One morning His Holiness mentioned to his attendants that he expected a very special visitor that afternoon. That day Domo Geshe Rinpoche, who always looked like a simple monk, brought special delicacies to offer to His Holiness and spent a long time in private talks with him. In the evening, His Holiness asked his attendants if they had seen the very special person who had visited him in the afternoon. They said that they had only seen a monk in tattered robes. His Holiness replied, “That is too bad. I saw Je Tsong Khapa himself.”

Many years later, in the 1950s, the Dungkar Monastery twice hosted His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama and his government for extended periods of time. It was during these visits, the prayer to Dorje Shugden was composed by His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama.


The throne of Domo Geshe Rinpoche in Dungkar Monastery


His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama at Dungkar Monastery or White Conch Shell Monastery.

This is the famous oracle of Dorje Shugden in Dungkar Monastery in full trance of  wrathful form of Dorje Shugden. Due to the blessings of Domo Geshe Rinpoche, this oracle was famous for his clear prophecies. People from all over Tibet, Mongolia and North India would travel to Dungkar Monastery to consult Dorje Shugden. Domo Geshe Rinpoche was a very devoted practitioner of Dorje Shugden, Tsongkapa, Vajra Yogini and Guru Rinpoche Padmasambhava. There was no conflicts. His Holiness the Dalai Lama had consulted this famous oracle of Dorje Shugden while staying in Dungkar Monastery. Because the words from Dorje Shugden was clear and concise and accurate, Dalai Lama developed great respect for Dorje Shugden and composed the special prayer.


This is the same oracle monk taking trance of the peaceful Dorje Shugden in Dungkar Monastery. When Dorje Shugden took trance in peaceful form, he can stay longer and speak more. In the wrathful form, the stay will not be long. Dulzin Dorje Shugden in peaceful form always wears the robes of a monk and pandit’s hat. Dorje Shugden’s previous lives as Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen etc. were great scholars hence in peaceful form he wore the robes of a monk and the pandit’s hat of a scholar.

In this form of trance, Dorje Shugden can give extensive Dharma talks lasting many hours quoting from scriptures without looking at any texts, do extensive rituals and even confer initiation. Even if the oracle monk out of trance was not learned, but in trance of Shugden, it was completely different. The oracular prophecies of Dorje Shugden were highly sought after whether in the wrathful or peaceful forms. This oracle was specially blessed and created by Domo Geshe Rinpoche in Dungkar Monastery.

Tsem Rinpoche


His Eminence the 1st Domo Geshe Rinpoche who built and founded Dungkar Monastery.


His Eminence the 2nd Domo Geshe Rinpoche


The 3rd and current incarnation of His Eminence Domo Geshe Rinpoche. This incarnation was both confirmed by the current Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden oracle in trance.


World Peace Buddha and Protector Dorje Shugden

Here’s something extra, not only did the 14th Dalai Lama compose prayers to Dorje Shugden, but so did the Great 5th Dalai Lama! 

His Holiness the 5th Dalai Lama

Prayer by the 5th Dalai Lama to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden


Though unmoving from the sphere of primordial spontaneity,
With wrathful turbulent power, swifter than lightning,
Endowed with heroic courage to judge good and bad,
I invite you with faith, please come to this place!

Robes of a monk, crown adorned with rhinocerous leather hat,
Right hand holds ornate club, left holds a human heart,
Riding various mounts such as nagas and garudas,
Who subdues the mamo’s of the charnal grounds, praise to you!

Samaya substances, offerings and torma, outer, inner and secret,
Favorite visual offerings and various objects are arranged.
Although, previously, my wishes were a bit dense,
Do not stop your powerful apparitions, I reveal and confess!

Now respectfully praising with body, speech, and mind,
For us, the masters, disciples, benefactors and entourages,
Provide the good and avert the bad!
Bring increase like the waxing moon in spiritual and temporal realms!

Moreover, swiftly accomplishing all wishes,
According to our prayers, bestow the supreme effortlessly!
And like the jewel that bestows all wishes,
Always protect us with the Three Jewels!



Even the composition of this short praise and propitiation brought benefit. Thus, although undisputed great Tantric masters tried to subdue him by burning him in the fire through their rituals, his display of miraculous power only grew greater. (from ‘Music Delighting the Oceans of Protectors’, page 105).

His Holiness the 5th Dalai Lama wrote this propitiation after realizing that Dorje Shugden was not a harmful spirit, as he had first assumed because of the disturbing appearances that manifested after Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen’s death.

As Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang explains, such displays as that of trying unsuccessfully to subdue the Dharmapala, serve to bring out the greatness in both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden who, in the process, showed his having mastered Guhyasamaja’s two stages, amongst other signs.

The Great Fifth not only wrote this prayer, but even crafted a famous and still-existing statue of Dorje Shugden with his own hands.

His Holiness the 5th Dalai Lama composed prayers, and also made a statue of Dorje Shugden. The Dorje Shugden statue is now housed at Gaden Pelgyeling Monastery, Nepal. I had the fortune to have audience with this holy statue. Even the 5th Dalai Lama revered Dorje Shugden. The 5th Dalai Lama and 14th Dalai Lama are the same mindstreams and both are Avalokitesvara. In that case they cannot be mistaken if they see Dorje Shugden as a superior being and also composed prayers to Dorje Shugden. The 5th Dalai Lama also commissioned a chapel to be built in Lhasa dedicated to Dorje Shugden. This chapel still exists today and attracts thousands of pilgrims. It is called Trode Khangsar. I will blog about it in the near future.


Prayer to Dorje Shugden in Tibetan by the 14th Dalai Lama


Prayer to Dorje Shugden in Tibetan by the 5th Dalai Lama.



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85 Responses to The 14th Dalai Lama’s prayer to Dorje Shugden


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  1. Wan Wai Meng on Jul 21, 2016 at 1:21 pm

    The 5th and 14th Dalai Lama are great Lamas, in their own time. They both had
    to endure very difficult circumstances. The 5th Dalai Lama was heading a nation that had experienced some form of civil war in Tibet and he had to show strong leadership and also find ways to reconcile a country that was torn by the war.
    The 14th Dalai Lama leads the Tibetan nation in exile, and leads a nation of exile who do not have a country at all.

    Both of them are very strong individuals and have great wisdom/insight to be
    able to weather so much difficulties. I do not think the Avalokiteshvara will make a mistake of not recognizing Dorje Shugden as demon, not during the first time and then of course not later as well. The 14th Dalai Lama has his own bigger
    purpose to manifest such a controversy.

  2. Datuk May on Jul 20, 2016 at 10:17 pm

    HH 14th Dalai Lama’s prayer to Dorje Shugden is one of the best encompassing prayers that I have come across. It is a beautiful and precise prayer that has all the essence of a long puja prayer with everything from invocation to dissolution.

    Besides the prayer there is so much information that perhaps the Dalai Lama can make a mistake in invoking the ban on Dorje Shugden.

    Whatever the reasons, I sincerely request the Dalai Lama to lift the ban and stop all the sufferings. It has been too long.

  3. Wai Meng Wan on Jul 10, 2016 at 8:57 pm

    It really does not make any good sense, that the Dalai Lama can praise Dorje Shugden and in the next moment call it a spirit. The Dalai Lama after Great 5th could have figured out that Dorje Shugden was a spirit.

    Why wait until the 21st century to proclaim Dorje Shugden as a spirit?

  4. Pastor Antoinette on Mar 3, 2016 at 10:00 am

    From my understanding, the points that stand out are: H.H. Dalai Lama is very well known all over the world. He was the secular and spiritual leader of Tibet. He writes books for the public, has dialogue with other religions and scientific people. He travels the world to promote Buddhism. And this article shows clearly that he practiced Dorje Shugden for many years and he wrote this prayer to Dorje Shugden.

    His Holiness stands for peace and has received the Nobel Peace Prize! He himself and his position advocates compassion, peace, dialogue and so on. So how is that H.H. gives the order to segregate and divide his own people in their basic rights? They have to endure heavy punishments for their religious choice like having to leave their monastery, not being able to get any teachings from their Guru, not being able to even meet their family and friends. Basic human needs like not get treatment at the hospital, being refused work at the government places, not being able to travel how they like, to name a few, are refused to Dorje Shugden practitioners. In what way will this ever benefit someone?

    If high masters have improved teachings from their masters, like what was quoted – did they force the changes onto everyone with such punishments?

    Or was it that over time there were seen improvements for all – that the goal was to benefit instead of punishing what doesn’t please?

    Yes, H.H. changed his views many times over the years and I hope he will change his view on Dorje Shugden practitioners soon.

    The suffering of Dorje Shugden practitioners is real for 20 years now! To advocate dialogue with science and other religions is great but please don’t look away and forget about the many many Dorje Shugden practitioners. We beg H.H. Dalai Lama to end the ban on Dorje Shugden practitioners now.

  5. JP on Feb 19, 2016 at 12:40 am

    I find this article making a lot of sense although I may sound bias. Regardless, we can always look at the points presented and use our logic to understand. There are 2 points in the article that totally negates HH The Dalai Lama’s claim that Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit.

    1) “Since Dalai Lama is a highly realized being, he should be able to see Dorje Shugden as a superior being or a negative being from the very first time they ‘met’. This ability is inherent in highly attained beings such as H.H. the Dalai Lama.”

    2) “Domo Geshe Rinpoche worshipped Dorje Shugden for many incarnations. His incarnations never went wrong or to the three lower realms, but returns again and again. This clearly proves Dorje Shugden’s practice does not send us to the three lower realms.”

    For the followers of HH The Dalai Lama to not see that the above points immediately make their stance for HH totally illogical, it only shows how fanatical they have become at the expense of Dorje Shugden practitioners. Forget about being spiritual. Any decent human being will never support any sort of discrimination, making others suffer regardless of whether the King, President or Prime Minister of a country, Pope and so on demands us to do so. How can any decent leader stay quiet when his or her people are suffering due to discrimination???

    So it’s ok to be right about one’s belief and let others suffer just because they don’t agree with your belief and your supposed “evidence” to justify your belief??? What kind of a leader is that?

    If anyone supports a leader who condones suffering for those who do not agree with his or her point of view, then the same people should also tell others to stop fighting for women’s equality. They should also tell Black Americans to stop fighting against racial discrimination. They should burn portraits of Mahatma Ghandi and Nelson Mandela who dared to fight for their people’s rights.

    My point. All of us can believe in whatever we want. But NEVER hurt others or create sufferings for others just because we don’t share similar beliefs. Otherwise, you are no different from the extremists who kill millions. I’m sure if you get a chance to ask them why they would kill millions, they would give you many reasons why they are right to do so.

  6. Yeo Kwai Gin on Feb 13, 2016 at 11:39 pm

    在Tenzin Peljor与Tenzin Gyeche的交谈,让我对达赖尊者的疑惑,就是




    ~在频视里,达赖尊者说到,赤江仁波切是可以修持雄登法门,其他人是不允许的 !这为何道理呢?

    ~Tenzin Gyeche还说到,在第五世达赖尊者允许修持其法门,还亲手制造了雄登法相供大家供养,直到现在还不断地让大众供养,为何又会在19年前才出此禁令呢?那是证明了在这几百年以来,达赖尊者会那么疏忽吗?达赖尊者乃是观世音菩萨的化身,几百年后才发觉问题,那是不可能的事 !




    感恩 合十

  7. Tenzin Peljor on Feb 4, 2016 at 9:06 pm

    Dear Tsem Tulku,
    someone sent me the link to this post and I feel compelled to respond to it. Please forgive me if it hurts your feelings. This is not my intention. My intention is to correct the underlying misunderstandings of the post and to give the discussion a broader and saner perspective.

    I think you make it too hard for yourself and others (you mislead yourself and others) by assuming that all the masters – including HH the Dalai Lama – are totally enlightened (omniscient) and therefore can’t make errors. This is typical Tibetan Dharma propaganda and there is no proof whatsoever for such claims. By claiming totally enlightened status for the Dalai Lama or your lineage lamas you ascribe to them an infallibility they highly likely didn’t possess. These recognised Tulkus or high lamas are most often mainly highly gifted people with immense good karma and dedication to Dharma practice, their lineages and sentient beings. Of course they have also certain high realisations but this doesn’t make them free of errors. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is very clear about this and he openly admits his own errors as the great Indian Pandit Atisha has admitted openly his own errors. Similar to as Atisha rejected the false view on emptiness by his most precious guru, Serlingpa, His Holiness the Dalai Lama rejects the false view on Shugden by one of his his most precious gurus, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. It would be good to become more realistic and to see masters as sentient beings who can make also errors otherwise you make one knot after the other in your and your students’ minds and nobody is really helped by claims that don’t match reality or that distort reality and confuse the mind.

    It would be a first step to reality to accept that masters can err. That’s why also Je Tsongkhapa wrote in his commentary on the tantric vows that if your master gives an “improper and irreligious command” don’t follow it. Tsongkhapa quotes the Vinaya Sutra: “If someone suggests something which is not consistent with the Dharma, avoid it.” Also the writings on Sutra and Tantra by Tsongkhapa make clear that tantric masters can err and can even go astray. A student must be able to see such faults and to respond wisely to it. By claiming in the literal sense total enlightened status to the gurus you construe them to be unfailing and you go against the scriptures and what past masters like Atisha or Tsongkhapa did. Tsonkhapa distanced himself from Ven. Rendawa’s Madhyamaka view and he rejected Rendawa’s view that the Kalachakra is not authentic. Atisha when critisised by his most important master, Serlingpa, about his Madhyamaka view answered to Serlingpa – who followed Chittamatra school: What ever you say: I will not give up my view and the more you talk about your Chittamatra view I’ll see more more clearly that my Madhyamaka view is correct. – To see your master as totally enlightened is a tantric training and is not meant to be understood in the literal sense. As you can see the most important Lamas of the Gelug school, Atisha and Tsongkhapa, found faults in their teachers’ views.

    If you have really have respect for His Holiness the Dalai Lama, why don’t you read his comments and think about their meanings? For instance in his commentary about the Heart Sutra His Holiness gives the following interesting perspective which is worthwhile to reflect:


    Earlier we observed that one of the principal features of the Buddha’s teachings is that they were spoken to accord with the varying spiritual and mental needs and dispositions of the listeners. The tenets of the various schools can similarly be viewed as fulfilling these diverse needs. We have just seen how the Mind-only School distinguishes definitive from provisional teachings, and in fact each school has its own criteria for determining whether a teaching of the Buddha is definitive or provisional. In each case, the process is similar: first, one uses analysis to determine the Buddha’s ultimate intention in making a particular statement; second, one determines the Buddha’s contextual rationale for making a particular statement; and third, one demonstrates the logical inconsistency, if any, that arises when the particular statement is taken literally. The need for such an approach is found in the Buddha’s own sutras. There is a verse in which Buddha urges his followers to take his words as they might accept from a’jeweler a metal that appears to be gold: only after seeing that the metal does not tarnish when burned, can be easily cut, and can be polished to a bright shine should the metal be accepted as gold. Thus, the Buddha gives us his permission to critically examine even his own teachings. Buddha suggests we make a thorough inquiry into the truth of his words and verify them for ourselves, and only then “accept them, but not out of reverenced”. Taking direction from statements such as these, ancient Indian monastic universities, such as Nalanda, developed a tradition whereby students would critically subject their own teachers’ scholastic work to analysis. Such critical analysis was seen in no way to go against the great admiration and reverence the students had for their teachers. The famous Indian master Vasubandhu, for example, had a disciple known as Vimuktisena, who was said to excel Vasubandhu in his understanding of the Perfection of Wisdom sutras. He questioned Vasubandhu’s Mind-only interpretation and instead developed his own understanding of the sutras in accord with the Middle Way School. An example of this in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is Alak Damchoe Tsang, who was one of the disciples of the great nineteenth-century Nyingma master Ju Mipham. Although Alak Damchoe Tsang had tremendous admiration and reverence for his teacher, he voiced his objections to some of Miphams writings. Once a student of Alak DamchoeTsang is said to have asked if it was appropriate to critically object to the writings of his own teacher. Alak Damchoe Tsang’s immediate response was, “If one’s great teacher says things that are not correct, one must take even ones lama to task!” There is a Tibetan saying, “Retain your reverence and admiration for the person, but subject the writing to thorough critical analysis.” This demonstrates a healthy attitude and illustrates the Buddhist tradition known as the approach of the four reliances:

    Do not rely merely on the person, but on the words;
    Do not rely merely on the words, but on their meaning;
    Do not rely merely on the provisional meaning, but on the definitive meaning; and
    Do not rely merely on intellectual understanding, but on direct experience.

    As I said already, this is in line with what Atisha and Tsongkhapa did: they corrected the views of their own beloved teachers and corrected errors and misunderstandings.

    However Atisha was nevertheless grateful to Serlingpa and honoured him as his most important master. Similarly His Holiness still has deepest respect for Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche as he told and explained different times and he has explicit dreams of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche which show his deeply felt devotion.

    There are other examples were masters corrected or refuted or rejected the views of their masters, His Holiness the Dalai Lama states:

    Therefore, Arya Vimuktisena, whose teacher was Vasubhandu, saw that Vasubhandu’s manner of explanation of the Abhisamayalankara had been more affected by his own personal bias towards a particular position than being a true reflection of the author’s ultimate intent. He therefore composed a commentary refuting that view, displacing it with a Madhyamaka interpretation. Now was this a case of a corruption of the spiritual guide – disciple relationship on Arya Vimuktisena’s part or of him showing disrespect for Vasubhandu? It was neither of these things.

    Then we could look at accounts of the relationship between Jowo Je Atisha and his teacher Serlingpa. Serlingpa was the teacher who Atisha himself accredited as the one who helped him most in his quest to generate bodhicitta. In this area, he was like his root Lama. Despite this, on the philosophical level they were at variance. Serlingpa held the Cittamatra view. Accounts have it that Serlingpa congratulated Atisha for his practise of bodhicitta, whilst informing him that as far as his philosophical view was concerned he was incorrect. Atisha said though that Serlingpa’s instructions only served to boost his confidence in the correctness of the middle way view.

    Likewise, we have the case of Dharmakirti. Vasubhandu had many students, one of whom was Dignaga. He was said to have been the one who surpassed even his own master in terms of his understanding of Pramana. Dignaga then had a disciple called Ishvarasena. He in turn had Dharmakirti as a student. Dharmakirti heard explanation of Dignaga’s Pramanasamuccaya text from Ishvarasena, but rejected Ishvarasena’s interpretation. He then incorporated Ishvarasena’s views as the objects of attack in sections of his Pramanavarttika. Thus, when it comes to helping to clarify the doctrine, creating, and rectifying mistakes, even one’s own teacher may come under criticism. One can see it in terms of one’s teacher having given certain instructions directed at a few specific individuals (when there is a need to give a different message). Whilst this might generally work though, it would be difficult to square in the above-mentioned case of Vasubhandu. At least in the way that Haribhadra has put it, it sounds as though it was Vasubhandu’s own bias (as opposed to consideration of any particular disciple) that led him to interpret things in the way that he did. Anyway, whether the original reasons for certain interpretations were due to individual students, other considerations or plain misunderstanding, it may prove necessary for later individuals to clarify things. Rectifying, clarifying and the like are generally accepted approaches for the learned and completely in step with the correct general approach to the teachings. This is way to proceed and help to guard against decline.


    Other examples you’ll find here:

    Based on his realization, Tsongkhapa revised completely the understanding of the Prasangika-Madhyamaka teachings on voidness and related topics that the teachers and learned masters of his day had held. In this regard, he was a radical reformer with the courage to go beyond current beliefs when he found them inadequate.

    Tsongkhapa always based his reforms strictly on logic and scriptural references. When he established his own view as the deepest meaning of the great Indian texts, he was not committing a breach of his close bond and relationship with his teachers. Seeing our spiritual teachers as Buddhas does not mean that we can not go beyond them in our realizations. Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche II explained this with the following example.

    To make a cake, we need to put together many ingredients – flour, butter, milk, eggs, and so on. Our teachers show us how to make a cake and bake a few for us. They may be very delicious and we may enjoy them greatly. Due to our teachers’ kindness, we now know how to make a cake. This does not mean that we cannot make some changes, add some different ingredients, and bake cakes that are even more delicious than those our teachers made. In doing so, we are not being disrespectful toward our teachers. If the teachers are really qualified, they will rejoice in our improvement on the recipe and enjoy the new cakes with us.


    (Just as a note: the incarnation of your master Kyabje Zong Rinpoche does NOT practice Shugden and he has abandoned that practice.)

    I wish you and your students all the best,

    • Tenzin Gyeche on Feb 5, 2016 at 5:10 am

      (Part 1)

      Dear Tenzin Peljor,

      Your argument is that all gurus can be wrong, therefore the Dalai Lama can also be wrong. If the Dalai Lama can be wrong, he has been wrong many times in the past, can be wrong in the present and will be wrong many times in the future. Since all gurus can be wrong, then none of their writings, rituals, teachings and visions can be fully relied upon by anyone. Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Chandrakiriti, Chandragomin, Ashvagosha, Dharmakiriti, Shariputra, Vasabandhu, Dignaga, Tilopa, Gandapa, Virupa, Atisha, Guru Padmasambhava, Lalita Vajra, Ra Lotsawa, Shantarakshita, Loden Sherab, Dromtopa, Geshe Chekawa, Langri Thangpa, Marpa, Milarepa, Buton Rinchen Drub, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Je Tsongkhapa, Sakya Pandita, Jigten Sumgon, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo, Jetsun Drakpa Gyeltsen, Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, Kedrup Je, Gyaltsab Je, Konchok Gyalpo, Panchen Rinpoche, Dudjom Rinpoche, Mindrolling Rinpoche, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche, Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche, Penor Rinpoche, Karmapa, Gaden Tripa, Jangtse Choeje, Sakya Throne Holder, Ling Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Denma Locho Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Serkong Tsenshab Rinpoche, Geshe Ngawang Dhargye, Geshe Rabten, Geshe Sopa, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Sharpa Choeje, abbots of three pillars and so on, and in fact every single lama of the Tibetan Buddhist pantheon cannot be trusted or relied upon. From your point of view, since they can all be wrong, why quote from their scriptures to give credibility to anything? We quote from one to justify another? That basically means we are in the spiritual realm quantifying spiritual attainments. Why quote from somebody who can be wrong to cover something else that can be wrong? Why quote from Je Tsongkapa or anyone of them then? They can all be wrong. If unenlightened masters say a certain master is enlightened, it is not reliable then. Then all those who said Tsongkapa and Guru Rinpoche are enlightened could be wrong. Why even practice Buddhism at all? Nobody can trust no one. If all these learned masters, who are supposed to have great attainments are wrong, then why rely on any of them? Why use them to justify anyone else, or to give credibility to anything? It’s all hogwash.

      1. Can the Buddhist masters be wrong? Aren’t they highly attained?

      A. You say that all masters can all be wrong. So when you say that a person is wrong, that same person can point the finger right back at you and say that you are wrong. Why is the Dalai Lama right and everyone else wrong, and you only find literature to back up your opinion of what is wrong? There are so many other lamas that say Dorje Shugden is right. According to them, he has been right for four hundred years. There are many different practices within each sect of Buddhism in Tibet that are not practiced by the other sects. Is it not that one sect’s teaching is always promoting or saying how superior one teaching is to another? That the lineage they practice is superior to another. The very fact there are heads of Tibetan Buddhism highlights unspoken sectarianism. So why are there different sects?

      B. If a teacher can be wrong about one thing, then he can be wrong about another thing until he realizes it, which can be years of wasted practice. What happens if he never finds out he was wrong, his students keep practicing what is wrong? If a teacher can be wrong, he will not know it until you ‘find’ out for him? So why have teachers and students at all. All Teachers can be wrong. Don’t rely on anyone. So students surpass the learning of the teacher and teachers are wrong.

      C. 99% of the time there is no way a new student or existing student is going to detect something that is wrong in a teacher’s teachings, if there is anything wrong at all. How to get up and say to Dudjom, Dilgo Kyentse, 16th Karmapa, Gaden Tripa, etc that they are wrong on this and or that? Who would even believe it? It’s the arrogance of the students to think these teachers can be wrong one way or another because the whole basis of your practice is wrong then. But then again if they are not wrong, then how come there are issues on Dorje Shugden, two karmapas, two Panchen lamas? If they can be wrong, then your argument has no basis because then why is there a Shugden conflict? So to say teachers can be wrong or not wrong is baseless in this argument.

      D. If highly realized teachers can be wrong, then it would suffice to say, there are no high realizations or that every single guru from the time of Buddha till now had no high realizations. This would mean that Buddha's teachings cannot confer high realizations or that not one single teacher or person since the first turning of the Four Noble Truths has ever gained high realizations. It can also mean that high realizations can reverse to no realizations at all. So if you gain realizations you can lose them again. I mean the 14th Dalai Lama is born with wisdom and he practiced Dorje Shugden for half his life and then suddenly he realizes Shugden is not good. Does that mean Dalai Lama didn’t have wisdom in the beginning? So either the gurus have gained high realizations and therefore have the wisdom eye to see which protector/being is harmful and which is not, or they do not. Panchen Rinpoche wrote prayers, kangsols and pujas to Dorje Shugden exalting him as a high being and installed him in Tashi Lhunpo as a protector ( ). Dorje Shugden has a special large chapel dedicated to his practice in Tashi Lhunpo, Tibet, which is still there today. Suddenly the 14th Dalai Lama says Dorje Shugden is not a high being. Whose attainments are higher? Panchen Lama’s or Dalai Lama’s? They have in previous lives exchanged roles many times as teacher and disciple. How does a student know if the Panchen Lama or Dalai Lama is higher in attainments? Panchen Lama is known to be the emanation of Amitabha and Dalai Lama is supposed to be Avalokiteshvara. So which is correct? Both 10th Panchen Lama and 14th Dalai Lama are very well trained in the dharma by the best of the best. So shall one of us determine which is higher? Which one to listen to? Who among us can determine that? Both will have scriptural authority and scriptural verses from other leading masters to back up their claims about Dorje Shugden. Both can quote other lamas. Both can say they had dreams, signs, divinations, premonitions or even clairvoyance about Shugden either way.

      To say all gurus can be wrong is to accept the logical fact the 14th Dalai Lama can be wrong on the ban against Shugden. There can even be many writings and high lamas to back this up also. Or why cannot the Dalai Lama be wrong? Just because he is famous, well known and the leader of the country? Leaders cannot be wrong?

      2. How to look at Dalai Lama? As a secular head or spiritual head?

      A. As a secular head just like any other secular head, he can be wrong and has been wrong many times. Until now he has not secured the freedom of Tibet from China. So he had to concede to the middle way policy which was embarrassing. But that is not what he was saying back in the 1960’s through to the late 1980’s. For nearly close to forty years it was about Free Tibet. We will go back to a free Tibet. In fact back in 1985 during the Kalachakra in Bodhgaya, over 40,000 Tibetans from Tibet came to attend by special permission. Dalai Lama had a special audience with them. He told the crowd that he consulted Nechung and it was predicted that within 5 years he will see all of them in Lhasa, which should have been in 1990. There was emotional pandemonium. Everyone cried and teared. Tears of joy. It’s been 31 years since that announcement and nevermind the fact that the Dalai Lama said he would see everyone back in Lhasa, he has given up the whole independence movement and downgraded to Tibetan autonomy under China. NO FREEDOM, NO AUTONOMY AND DALAI LAMA DID NOT SEE THEM IN LHASA BACK IN 1990. The vast majority of Tibetans do not agree with this and we have been seeing more people being vocal against this. But don’t forget, if you say you want middle way, you support Dalai Lama and you are good. If you say you want freedom, against middle way, you are automatically against Dalai Lama and therefore anti-Dalai Lama. That is the label put on people. No one may disagree with Dalai Lama. So as a secular head he has been wrong many times. He has not secured anything for Tibet so far and Dalai Lama is 80 years old already! In Tibetan society you cannot and are not allowed to disagree with the Dalai Lama as he holds full power just like in North Korea. If you disagree with him as a teacher you go to three lower realms. If you disagree with him as a secular leader you are unpatriotic. You lose either way. The system is set up that way.

      The 13th Dalai Lama, as you say, told Pabongka to be quiet about Shugden. Interesting. But he could not force his ministers to make diplomatic relations with the free world of the time such as Japan, UK, Germany, USA, United Nations, etc? If he had made strong diplomatic relations by having their embassies in Lhasa and Tibetan embassies in their countries, perhaps 1959 would have been different. If he had learned about the outside world and let the outside world learn about Tibet, it would have helped. The 13th Dalai Lama as a statesman had failed and the failure fell onto the 14th Dalai Lama who had to take up secular reign in his teenage years, making even more mistakes which forced him to leave in 1959. From 1959 till now the 14th Dalai Lama has failed to secure Tibet whether as independent or an autonomous state. No free world country supports Tibet's freedom and this is when the Dalai Lama is still alive as everyone is making friends with the economic powerhouse China. When the Dalai Lama has passed away, the lack of support will deteriorate further if it can deteriorate any further than now. The Dalai Lama's legacy will be that he never got Tibet back. Can you imagine? If this happened to any other leader in any other country, they would have been kicked out of office or jailed. Both the 13th Dalai Lama and 14th Dalai Lama would have been voted out of office. Imagine Italy taking over Germany. Or Spain swallowing UK? Or USA invading Canada? The leaders would be blamed and punished! How come any other leader is not given exceptions, but the Dalai Lama is given exceptions? On such a global scale he has failed and now he wants to denigrate and destroy Dorje Shugden’s practice? Disallowing Tibetans to be part of mainstream Tibetan culture just because of their religious beliefs. How ridiculous. All Tibetans should be united whether they believe in any religion or no religion at all.Isn’t it like that in Germany or any democratic country? All people united regardless of their religion? Even the CTA can put up a website against Shugden while at the same time hosting What leader in any free country would do this? Persecute their people for religion in the 21st century? What leader would have on their website writings against any form of worship like the Dalai Lama has done? ( and This makes the Dalai Lama look really bad. Why is there no dialogue with Shugden people? Why not solve the issue? This makes him look like a hateful guru and a short-sighted statesman, however you want to take view of him.

      What kind of secular leadership is that? A leader who can never be wrong and if he can be wrong on one thing, he can be wrong on another. Dalai Lama saying at times he can be wrong is just false humility, pretending to be humble while he enforces his rule as this is what appeals to Westerners who fund his government. He is just saying what they want to hear. Remember, the US in the past gave 19 million dollars a year to them in aid although now the aid is lessening due to discovery of corruption with CTA. But to his own Tibetans he is not so soft and easy or as freedom granting (video: Contradictions in Dalai Lama's speeches on Dorje Shugden). This sounds like Burma, East Germany prior to unification, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea. Remember in North Korea, the leader can NEVER be wrong. If you voice he is, there will be penalties, just like in Tibetan exiled society. Undemocratic Asian societies are very used to dictatorship or autocracy. Their populace do not know better and have been used to it for centuries.

      B. If we are to view him as a spiritual guru, then once we receive teachings from him, then he is to be seen as a Buddha. After all how can Guru Kalachakra be wrong? What Mahasiddhas ever mentioned gaining attainments by seeing their gurus with mistakes? Read the 84 Mahasiddha stories. In any treatise on Guru-Disciple relationship whether Indian or Tibetan in origin, the guru is to be seen as faultless, especially if we want to gain results in tantrayana. When we do our Kalachakra practices daily which we received from Dalai Lama for example, how to see him as imperfect? This would not confer enlightenment. If we are to respect our Kalachakra initiating master as a Buddha, then it would be the same for any teacher we create a samaya with. Then if that is the case, the Dalai Lama has no right to say another teacher is wrong or right because he is no one’s spiritual police. He should not override our faith in another lama. Each sect has their own head. The Dalai Lama does not need to mention anything on Shugden. If he can say they are wrong, then others can say he is wrong. Wrong is wrong. Since he opens the gateways of spiritual masters being wrong contrary to 2,500 years of Buddhism and tantric history, then he can be wrong too. So his views on Dorje Shugden can be right? But only the Dalai Lama’s views on Dorje Shugden is right? No, absolutely not. All other high masters’ views are wrong and just Dalai Lama is right? No. Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Panchen Rinpoche, many of the Gaden Tripas all have practiced Dorje Shugden and their incarnations are back and fine. They didn’t go to the three lower realms as threatened by Dalai Lama if you practice Dorje Shugden. (Ling Rinpoche’s trust in Dorje Shugden: and 10th Panchen Rinpoche’s worship of Shugden: )

      The big question here is shall we see the Dalai Lama as a spiritual teacher or a secular leader? If we see him as a spiritual leader, then how can we say he makes mistakes in the secular world? If he is a secular leader, then how can we say he is mistaken in the spiritual world? The Dalai Lama should not play two roles. He confuses people.

      Do you want Angela Merkel to be your guru and be your secular leader simultaneously? Would you like Angela Merkel to run the church, make the rules, ban certain practices, do the blessings, baptisms, give names, bless people, perform exorcisms and be highly respected? But then she is also the secular head of Germany. Wouldn’t it be uncomfortable to protest against her if you respect her in the spiritual sphere? But then if she makes so many mistakes in leading the country as the Prime Minister, how can you respect her in the spiritual sphere? Wouldn’t that confuse the populace? How about if all the other leaders do the same? Obama, Cameron, Shinzo Abe, Xi Jinping, Dilma Rousseff, etc should all be your spiritual and secular heads too? Even the pope is elected and has a term of office. But Dalai Lama seems to be lifetime dictator, again like North Korea. You can say Tibet’s leadership was in a unique position but that uniqueness is over. It should be long over as the leadership lost the country and has never regained it. The leadership failed. Avalokitesvara failed? Or is it King Dalai Lama failed? Is he a King, a Buddhist pope that never finishes office, a prime minister or a dictator or what? I am not being sarcastic but we seem to make a lot of exceptions for the Dalai Lama.

      Even if Dalai Lama is so called 'retired', he still controls everyone from behind and that is 100% for sure. So do we look at the Dalai Lama as a statesman or a spiritual guru? If seen as both it is very confusing. We cannot protest, or speak against our guru who happens to be our secular head, some sort of King. As a King, if he makes mistakes, we cannot say anything because he is our Guru. But then gurus can make mistakes too. But then if gurus speak against Shugden, they are NOT mistaken, but if they support Shugden, they are mistaken. Interesting how things are turned and twisted for the sake of convenience. It is very confusing to see the Dalai Lama in dual roles, in which he uses his influence to divide the Tibetan people based on religious discrimination.

      Tenzin Gyeche

      • Tenzin Peljor on Feb 12, 2016 at 11:28 pm

        Hi Tenzin Gyeche,
        thank you for your reply. Due to time limitations I reply only very briefly and only to a basic point.

        True, if the gurus can be wrong, then the Dalai Lama can also be wrong. For instance, he can be wrong in having relied on Shugden and he can be wrong in having distanced himself from the practice. He can be right or be wrong in putting restrictions on Shugden worship too or in how he deals with the whole issue.

        However, as a Buddhist and master, he should give good reasons for his decisions/actions so that a student can check how reasonable/unreasonable, well/ill thought out, in line/not in line with scriptures etc his arguments are. He did this and its up to the student to check and to draw his or her own conclusion.

        Your basic “logic” is as fallacious as that of Tsem Tulku is fallacious – also the logic of Gonsar Rinpoche is fallacious who argues in the same unreasonable way. Because a guru made one or some errors this doesn’t mean that he erred in all of his deeds and in all of his teachings or judgements. Atisha made errors and openly confessed them for instance, does this make him unreliable?

        Tsongkhapa insists that a qualified student of the Mahayana must have the intelligence to discriminate erroneous from valid teachings (this implies not to accept erroneous teachings), and that he must also be unbiased. If the student is biased – if the student takes sides out of attachment or aversion – the student will see faults where there are qualities or qualities where there are faults. So it IS a student’s task to check and to judge the teachings of the guru. That’s why Tsongkhapa also says, that if the teaching is not in line with the Dharma or Vinaya don’t accept it but do it in a way that you don’t loose trust in your teacher. To NOT accept teachings at face value or out of authority or tradition but only after you have carefully checked them is also what the Buddha said.

        His Holiness the Dalai Lama, in line with the scriptures, good reasoning and past masters argues: “I am of the opinion that Phabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche’s promotion of the worship of Dholgyal was a mistake. But their worship represents merely a fraction of what they did in their lives. Their contributions in the areas of Stages of the Path, Mind Training and Tantra teachings were considerable. Their contribution in these areas was unquestionable and in no way invalidated by involvement with Dholgyal … My approach to this issue (i.e. differing on one point, whilst retaining respect for the person in question) is completely in line with how such great beings from the past have acted.”

        Now, if you argue that the past masters can’t have erred. You are putting yourself into a deep dilemma and you have to follow black and white patterns of thinking. What about the historical point that already the 13th Dalai Lama rebuked Pabongkha Rinpoche for spreading this practice? The 13th DL can’t have erred, can he? The 13th DL scolded Pabongkha for violating the refuge vows in the way how he spread and used Shugden practice. Pabongkha Rinpoche had to excuse to the 13th Dalai Lama, admitted and confessed his errors in a letter to the 13th DL and promised him to stop to spread it. However, ignoring his own promise Pabongkha spread it even more after the death of the 13th DL. So, was Pabongkha wrong or was the 13th DL wrong? Had Pabongkha higher realisations than the 13th DL? And why did Trijang Rinpoche ignore the strong Anti-Shugden stance of the 5th and 13th DL and introduced the practice to the 14th DL, contributing to a potential conflict in the spiritual life and actions of the 14th DL?

        It all boils down that masters can err and that a student MUST have to check if advice or practices are in line with the dharma, scriptures and reasoning. You seem to totally ignore or refuse to think about what I wrote already in my first comment. Instead you just write a comment to convince yourself of your own narrow ideology, which is that the masters can’t err and if they erred they must have erred in all what they did and said but this cannot be, therefore they have never ever made an error in the first place. What a non-sense. Such an argument, as I demonstrated above is not in line with the scriptures and it is not reasonable.

        With respect to realisations: there are certain levels of realisations. Therefore, on the basis of the level of realisations, there can be also different views, perceptions and judgements. Therefore, there can be views that are more in line of reality and views that are less in line with reality. This is just as it is.

        To see the guru as a Buddha is a training, it is not meant literally that the guru is unfailing or omniscient and that he can never err.

        Dromtönpa for instance had to leave a guru who went insane. After he left him he met Atisha. It is better to leave an insane guru than to follow an insane guru because a student will degenerate following a misleading teacher.

        Tsongkhapa: “Distance yourself from Vajra Masters who are not keeping the three vows, who keep on with a root downfall, who are miserly with the Dharma, and who engage in actions that should be forsaken. Those who worship them go to hell and so on as a result.” (see Tantric Ethics: An Explanation of the Precepts for Buddhist Vajrayana Practice by Tsongkhapa, ISBN 0861712900) – p. 46

        Tsongkhapa in his Devotional Prayers:

        I pray that in no way I be misled
        by unwholesome friends and deceiving Mara
        but in care of true spiritual friends,
        complete the enlightened way.

        May I never fall under the sway
        of false teachers and misleading friends,
        their flawed views of existence and nonexistence
        well outside the Buddha’s intention.

        May I bring to the path praised by the Buddha
        those lost and fallen onto wrong paths,
        swayed by deluded teachers and misleading friends.

        The head turned by dark forces
        hinders experience of the joyful festival
        that is the community of the Dharma life.
        May I never encounter misleading friends,
        in reality the cohorts of Mara.

        Now if you say because the Kalachakra Tantra says that you should see your guru as a Buddha, he must be a Buddha and can never err, then you are not knowledgeable in the Kalachakra Tantra because it says also that you can distance yourself from your teacher when he has obviously too many faults. If he has too many obvious faults he can’t be a Buddha, who says this? The Kalachakra Tantra. For the Kalachakra Tantra regarding this, see either Dr. Alexander Berzin – an expert of the Kalachakra Tantra: or see the Kalachakra Tantra and a commentary here:

        Here is even more about that topic:

        I think for the time being, I can’t contribute more to the discussion and I fear it will get circling as long as you or others cling to the wrong idea “the guru is unfailing, he cannot have erred, if he had erred he could have erred in other cases too, this cannot be, therefore he didn’t err from the start.”

        I wish you and others all the best,

    • Tenzin Gyeche on Feb 5, 2016 at 5:11 am

      (Part 2)

      Dear Tenzin Peljor and everyone who’s reading,

      It’s good we can have civilized discussions here. On most Anti-Dorje Shugden platforms, they bar you or don’t allow you to speak. You are only allowed one view and that itself shows how they hide the truth. This is one of the rare platforms both sides of the Dorje Shugden issue can share, speak and debate peacefully without vulgarities, rudeness and generaly disrespect. Kudos to the webmasters of this:

      Prior to the advent of Buddhism in Tibet, it was a strong hold of Bonpo. The Bonpo practices were completely different from Buddhism, and it can be related to animism, and or shamanism. The Bonpo priests held sway both spiritually, emotionally and financially over the Tibetan populace. They catered to the spiritual needs of the public, and the public took care of their financial needs. So it was a very comfortable situation for both the populace and the Bonpo priests.

      When the first Buddhist teachers started coming to Tibet and turned the wheel of Dharma, understandably there were many who did not agree and tremendous opposition occurred. Much of the population except a small minority did not accept this new form of spirituality. The Bonpo priests and adherents did everything they could with the authorities of the day to prevent Buddhism taking hold. Bonpo priests were very well known for their occult practices, harnessing of various elemental energies, spirits and various gods. They were able to harness these beings and energies to do both good and harm. Naturally these beings were invoked by the Bonpo priests to stop the Buddhist teachers from proliferating their Dharma.

      Separate from the Bonpo priests, there were powerful indigenous psychic forces, such as Nechung and Tsering Chenga, who did their best on a psychic level to disturb the Buddhist masters. The Bonpo priests created schism, planted doubts in the mind of the public and got powerful warlords and chieftains to block the Buddhist teachers. The indigenous spirits such as Nechung, etc, on a psychic warfare level, would conjure up storms, wind, snow, and rain to disturb the gatherings of those who attended the teachings.

      Great scholars like Shantarakshita, who were learned and pure were not able to battle these malevolent forces that blocked Buddhadharma’s entrance. Whenever Shantarakshita gave teachings and Dharma talks, the Bonpo priests and indigenous mountain spirits would cause obstacles for those attending the teachings. Finally, Shantarakshita gave advice to invite the great scholar and Tantric master Guru Padmasambhava to disseminate the Dharma in Tibet and having said that, he returned to India.

      Though Shantarakshita was a great scholar, pure monk and a great master, on a tantric level, he was unable to battle psychically with these malevolent forces that were successful in blocking his ministry.

      With the arrival of the great Indian saint, mystic, scholar, Tantric occult master, Guru Padmasambhava, affectionately known as Guru Rinpoche, he prepared himself in extensive retreats and practices, throughout secret cave locations in India and Nepal. These places we can still visit today. When Guru Rinpoche had prepared himself tantrically to subdue the malevolent forces in Tibet, he entered Tibet. He gave extensive dharma teachings, hid termas for future generations, and generally taught the sutras and tantras to myriad beings both seen and unseen.

      Guru Rinpoche’s ministry was fraught with many obstacles, schism, and damnation from the usual Bonpo priests and indigenous powerful spirits. Guru Rinpoche did not have to tell people “do not practice this deity, do not practice that deity because they can bring you harm,” what he did was powerful rituals to subdue these forces and bind them to the oath of either protecting the Dharma as guardians of Buddha’s teachings, Dharma protectors, or he was able to bind them to not do any harm; some he expelled to distant field of existences, and even some he had to do wrathful occult tantric practices to kill them and therefore send their consciousness to a better rebirth out of compassion. So Guru Rinpoche was able to either bind, expel or kill these beings in order for the pure Buddhadharma to grow. He did not persecute the followers of these spirits, and threatened them about going to the 3 lower realms if they continued to pray, because the spirits were either bound to the dharma now, did not exist anymore, or sent away. So when these malevolent spirits are bound, sent away or killed, we do not have to worry about the harm they may inflict anymore or talk incessantly about them over and over again. In fact, following the tantric example of Guru Rinpoche, many accomplished masters from Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu and Gelug for the last 1000 years have also done the same and engaged in Tantric rituals to bind, expel, or kill these malevolent spirits that they have encountered in Tibet and all over the world where they have migrated.

      Within the Tibetan tantric tradition, there are many powerful rituals that can be done by accomplished masters that will not let any interfering beings continue to interfere. By the way, an interfering being can only interfere if you have the karma to be disturbed. If you are a pure monk, nun, holder of refuge vows, tantric practitioner, or emanation of some divine being, as some Tulkus are said to be, then it is impossible that your life can be harmed, shortened, damaged, and or disturbed by any malevolent spirits no matter who they are and what level they are. Certainly an emanation of Avalokiteshvara and or a great master like the Dalai Lama cannot be harmed by any malevolent forces. He is considered an emanation of Avalokiteshvara, a pure monk, and definitely holds his refuge vows very well. No spirit can shorten his life, damage his body, or harm him in any way. So if anyone is to say that is possible, would be intimating that the power of the Dharma practices are impotent. In fact, if the Dalai Lama keeps saying Dorje Shugden can harm us, he is indirectly saying that the high lamas, the tantric masters and their disciples, and in fact the Dharma has no power to protect us from one single evil spirit. This totally enfeebles the power of the Dharma.

      And to say a spirit can harm a country such as Tibet getting their independence back, is again in the field of imagination. East Germany was lost to communism for decades prior to unification, was that the cause of evil spirits or bad governmental corruption and mishandling? Cuba, North Korea, some Middle Eastern countries and African nation states have lost their countries to bad governments leading to civil wars, dictatorship and famine. This is the result of karma manifesting as a poor government arising from groups and individuals, not some interfering spirit as our Tibetan leaders would like to blame. Their pathetic loss of Tibet and their continued failure in securing Tibet back both in independence or autonomy, is a fault of their own lack of exposure, substandard education, corruption, and their total delight in blaming unseen deities for their own inabilities. Just to add the cherry on top, Nechung was a very powerful evil malevolent spirit whose origin comes from the middle east (In Exile from the Land of Snows, John Avedon, Chapter “Wheel of Protection” ) then migrated to Hor (Mongolia) and somehow found his way to Tibet to attempt to disturb Guru Rinpoche.

      He was one hundred percent “kosher” stamped and sealed an evil malevolent spirit, who is now Dalai Lama’s best friend. (video: Dalai Lama and Oracle)

      In other words, even such a powerful evil spirit such as Nechung can be subdued into becoming a Dharma protector. Are you telling me that within the Tibetan tantric practices, there is nothing that can subdue the so called “evil” Dorje Shugden? Can’t the Dalai Lama, Sakya Trizin, Karmapa, Mindroling Rinpoche or Gaden Tripa Rinpoche, combine forces and bind this powerful malevolent spirit that we keep talking on and on about? They can either bind him, expel him to another dimension, or kill and “phowa” (transference of consciousness) him into a Buddha’s pure land. Are you saying the Dalai Lama or Dharma , or tantric practices do not have any power against this one single being, who can “harm” the Dalai Lama, “shorten” his life, or block Tibet’s independence?

      No offence to anyone, but just for argument’s sake, the Christians have a great set up. Condemn the innocent and leave the guilty alone. Let me explain, God who is all powerful, the supposed creator of heaven and earth, the sun and the moon, all the stars, air, water, the fowls in the sky, the creatures in the sea and on land, humans, and let’s not forget angels cannot destroy Satan. Satan from time immemorial, has led God’s children astray and hence hell is filled, the churches are busy saving, while their coffers get bigger and bigger. Why is it that God allows one single fallen angel to lead so many to damnation? God created the angels, fallen and otherwise. Why can’t he destroy the fallen angel Satan? He has certainly destroyed everything else many times over, e.g. Sodom and Gomorrah, Tower of Babel, and Noah’s flood. So therefore it would be easy for everyone to live on earth happily, and then go to heaven without any obstacles if God would just destroy Satan. And let’s not forget, Eve was blamed and banished from Eden, and not the culprit serpent. The battle is over. No one needs to be saved anymore, the evil influence is gone. Goodbye to temptations. Can’t you just hear the blasting and blaring of the angels’ trumpets from heaven right now? We don’t even need the Pearly Gates, just leave them open. If only God and his minions in form of the churches, would just destroy Satan or the Devil, of course that would not be profitable and many people would be out of a job if that was done, wouldn’t it?

      Similarly, why don’t the savants, masters and the princes of the Tibetan Buddhist churches just get together and do a magic ritual, bind, expel or just kill Dorje Shugden? Then the Dalai Lama doesn’t need to worry about his flock, CTA doesn’t have to spend a couple of million dollars on literature, websites, and campaign on this Dorje Shugden and against his followers, because he would officially be dead. Better idea, perhaps we should just bind him, then he can be good friend of Nechung and join the entourage in the Dalai Lama’s private quarters as shown in the video. Why doesn’t the Dalai Lama force Dorje Shugden by ritual to take an oath never to harm any sentient being again, just like Guru Rinpoche did to Nechung? Then none of us would have to worry about this anymore and our conversation would end. With no offense to Christianity, in using the classic example of why the church and God did not destroy the devil, but keep persecuting the people he led astray.

      Similarly, why doesn’t Dorje Shugden just get bound, gagged and silenced? Doesn’t the Dalai Lama have power? Aren’t pure monks, nuns and tantric practitioners able to protect themselves and their flocks? Can’t the princes of the Buddhist church invoke upon Palden Lhamo, Mahakala, Vaishravana, Kalarupa, Dorje Drolo, Nechung, Gadong, Four-arm Mahakala, Ekazati, Hayagriva, Ling Gesar, Yamantaka, Rahula, Tsering Chenga, to get together and subdue this one SINGLE Dorje Shugden. After all, they are Dharma Protectors each in their own right and are so powerful. If you read their individual histories, they have reputations of very violent actions in regards to their origins. Take example, Palden Lhamo, who slew her husband, flayed her son, and rode on his skin into the yonder until she was subdued. Why can’t all these Dharma protectors combined together, not subdue one single so-called evil spirit, Dorje Shugden?

      I think the Dalai Lama and his government should stop talking about how evil Dorje Shugden is and how his followers are going to hell. It’s quite archaic, medieval and sounds like a witch hunt. And you Tenzin Peljor, whose origins are European, should understand that thousands were persecuted and killed in the witch hunts of the 16th century. ( and )

      No secular leader or spiritual leader should criticize another person’s faith, ever. The Dalai Lama's 'advice' to not practice Shugden is translated into law among the Tibetans hence all the segregation, disharmony and pain. In fact, the Dalai Lama should accept all Tibetans and all Tibetan Buddhists around the world to his public gathering of the non-religious nature if he is so worried about samaya. As a religious leader while he is conferring certain empowerments, if he is so worried about the influence of this one powerful Dorje Shugden, then we don’t need to join. But when he has public gathering of the secular nature, that has nothing to do with religion, but it concerns Tibet or some public talk on humanistic values in the West, why are Dorje Shugden practitioners not allowed to join? After all, they are joining not as Dorje Shugden practitioners but as human beings. So the Dalai Lama should distinguish between spiritual and non-spiritual practitioners that attend his talks, however to say just because you practice Dorje Shugden you can’t attend his secular talks doesn’t make him look good. It would be like the Pope saying Muslims can’t join his public talks. If Sai Baba mystically announced if you’re Jewish, you cannot get a blessing from him. Wouldn’t that all sound very preposterous?

      The simple Tibetan, the ordinary Tibetan, all want Tibetans to be united, regardless of if they’re Bonpo, Muslim, atheist, Gelug, Sakya, Nyingma, Kagyu, Dorje Shugden followers, born in the East or born in the West. Tibetans are so little in number, and to divide them further due to religion will not help the Tibetan cause, their religion, or the Dalai Lama’s reputation.

      Recently there were corrupt elections by the Tibetan Exiled Government, during which midway election requirements were changed in order to eliminate a candidate, Mr Lukar Jam, who did not fit their corrupt power schemes. Mr Lukar Jam, actually wanted reconciliation with all Tibetans uniting, regardless of their religious practice. He wanted to settle the Dorje Shugden issue. But of course his voice has been temporarily silenced. (video: Lukar Jam Atsock on Resolving Dorje Shugden (Dhogyal) Issue)

      This is what the ordinary Tibetans want. When you keep putting wood into fire, the fire never dies. And it continues burning destructively. Similarly when the Tibetan leadership repeatedly on every occasion, including on their websites, belittle, degrade and segregate Dorje Shugden followers, there will be no peace. The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government should stop talking about Dorje Shugden in such a negative manner, and contribute to religious harmony no matter if they accept or do not accept a certain spiritual practice. They should come to the table to talk with Dorje Shugden practitioners through peaceful, intelligent dialogue to settle this issue that they have created in 1996. It would be a feather in their cap if they did so.

      Tenzin Gyeche



    • Tenzin Gyeche on Feb 5, 2016 at 5:12 am

      (Part 3)

      Dear Tenzin Peljor and everyone reading this,

      As I am busy traveling, I am writing this from the plane and this is regarding Tai Situpa and what he said about Dorje Shugden: “The question is rather about valid cognizers … How valid is the view that Shugden is a Buddha, a vow breaking, harming spirit but also a manifestation of Manjushri, a hungry ghost or a dangerous spirit that creates discord and schism in spiritual communities (as H.E. Tai Situ Rinpoche said).”

      Each sect of Tibetan Buddhism is not only valid but has its own erudite scholars and masters to share their particular lineage teachings to the world. It is inappropriate for a teacher of another lineage to comment in a negative fashion about a practice from another lineage. Tai Situpa is a teacher of the Karma Kagyu and currently has no relations with the Gelugpas. Tai Situpa, as Rime as some people like to claim about him, does not practice the Gelugpa teachings nor does he promote it and neither is he qualified to do so. When we come to a very difficult issue such as the Dorje Shugden practice, made difficult by the Tibetan leadership, it is none of Tai Situpa’s business to comment especially in a negative manner. It is inappropriate for you, Tenzin Peljor, to quote Tai Situpa to validate your point. Tai Situpa has no knowledge of the Gelug lineage, its practices, history and background, and if he did it would still be inappropriate to comment about the Gelugpa lineage. Would he like Sharpa Choeje Rinpoche, Jangtse Choeje Rinpoche or Gaden Tripa to comment about Karma Kagyu texts and what is relevant or what is not? So Tai Situpa’s opinion on this matters to no one in the Gelug lineage and for that matter many in the Gelugpa lineage do not even know who Tai Situpa is. In layman’s terms, with respect, Tai Situpa should mind his own business and you should not quote from him on a Gelug issue. Tai Situpa has his own truckload of controversies mistakes, schisms, and problems.

      1. Traditionally the Karmapas are not chosen by the Dalai Lama or confirmed by him. Dalai Lama should have no involvement in this whatsoever. After the Karmapa has been confirmed by the four regents of the Karma Kagyu, as a courtesy his name is presented to the reigning Dalai Lama can be done but not necessary. Tai Situpa asking the Dalai Lama to confer an official recognition of Orgyen Trinley as the authentic Karmapa confused everyone. It is a Karma Kagyu affair. So the only reason Tai Situpa would have done that was to bank in on Dalai Lama’s fame perhaps. For his choice of Orgyen Trinley to rub shoulders with Dalai Lama, Orgyen Trinley would become famous. That would mean money, sponsorship and perhaps in the long run inheriting everything that belonged to the previous Karmapas from Rumtek and Tsurphu, including antiques, priceless treasures and even trust funds. For Tai Situpa to use the Dalai Lama to over-ride Sharmapa in this recognition totally made the Karma Kagyu lamas look ridiculous, ordinary, and power grasping. It made the top Karma Kagyu lamas look petty because the results didn’t fare well.

      a. We are to assume that the Sharmapa and Tai Situpa both are supposedly attained lamas recognised by the 16th Karmapa and authentic incarnations of their predecessors. Being matured and trained by the 16th Karmapa himself, you would think they would exemplify their exalted reincarnated tulku status. They should be compassionate, giving, generous, kind, respectful and last but not least cooperate with each other for all important matters and not become a violent power game which it has become. So much violence occurred in Rumtek Monastery in North India. Most important they should not create sectarianism by commenting on another lineage’s deities and issues. Tai Situpa has no right. He should stop making problems within his own sect and commenting on the issues in other Tibetan Buddhist sects.

      b. For Tai Situpa and Sharmapa to have a very public row, fighting and Youtube videos accusing each other of everything from lying, deception, power hunger, and enthroning the wrong Karmapa, why should anyone have a shred of respect for these two? Is this the results of practicing the dharma of the Karma Kagyu lineage? So much schism, controversy, pain and disillusionment? The Karma Kagyu School and centres throughout the world are divided into two factions due to their fighting. One that follows Tai Situpa and Orgyen Trinley and the other that follows Sharmapa and Thaye Dorje. This schism and this breaking in half of the Karma Kagyu School is still not resolved. How embarrassing for Tai Situpa. And then he has the audacity to comment on another lineage’s problems. Silence about Dorje Shugden would befit Tai Situpa much better.

      c. Both Orgyen Trinley and Thaye Dorje Karmapas are forbidden to go to Tsurphu, their head monastery in Tibet nor can either of them visit or take up residence at Rumtek monastery in North India. Both of them cannot visit, never mind reside! This Rumtek monastery in North India was built by the 16th Karma and the four regents grew up there. ( video: Rumtek Monastery Attacked) Both karmapas are forbidden to visit or take up residence.

      d. And to add salt to the wound as the saying goes, the Karma Kagyus have been violently enacting out sectarian and aggressive takeovers of Drukpa Kagyu monasteries and holy places of historical importance in Tibet. The Karmapa, whichever one he is, and the surviving supposed four regents of the Karma Kagyu are the heads and power of the Karma Kagyu School, is it not? When you have the head of the Drukpa Kagyu school appeal to the Karma Kagyu School to stop their hostile takeover, how does Tai Situpa and their whole group of lamas look now? Who is sectarian now? Why are you not taking care of your own problems and people, and why is Tai Situpa instead meddling in Gelugpa affairs? ( and video: On the Forced Conversion of Drukpa Monasteries in Kailash Region and see letter from Gyalwang Drukpa). Until now, those are just a few of the Karma Kagyu controversies, troubles and schisms that are known worldwide. Many have left the Karma Kagyu School due to great confusion. They accuse Dorje Shugden of creating schism but it seems Tai Situpa and his group of lamas are doing even a greater job of harm. Many saw it as a power struggle between the two top ranking lamas of the Karma Kagyu School, namely Tai Situpa and Sharmapa. With all their problems, difficulties, sectarianism and conflicts, which are still unresolved, it will be much better if you left Tai Situpa completely out of this conversation, together with any other lamas from other lineages that don’t concern or validate your argument.

      If Tai Situpa was attained, as some claim he is, instead of getting involved with the Dorje Shugden issue, and assuming Dorje Shugden is a negative being, then Tai Situpa should engage in some exotic Karma Kagyu puja-ritual to bind Dorje Shugden and save the world. There are some monotheistic religions that like to blame the sinner and not the cause of their supposed sin, which is the devil. Some monotheistic beliefs are that the devil tempts people astray and away from God, and therefore forces God to punish them. The easier solution would be that God just destroys the devil. Then no one would be led astray and everyone would be safe. If Dorje Shugden is a negative spirit then why don’t Tai Situpa and other supposed powerful Tibetan lamas bind him and save his ‘ignorant’ followers. Instead of segregating Dorje Shugden followers and condemning them, just bind Dorje Shugden and make him swear to do good things, as Guru Rinpoche had done to Nechung 1,000 years ago. And now Nechung, originally an evil, demonic, harmful spirit is best friends with the Dalai Lama.

      Tai Situpa and lamas from any other sects should not be involved, comment, or criticise Gelugpa affairs. Do not bring him up as he has many schisms and controversies himself. He does not enhance your argument but actually deflates it. Tai Situpa and other prominent Tibetan lamas, if they have compassion, should ask for reconciliation, peace and a peaceful settlement for the Dorje Shugden issue. They should do whatever they can to unite the Tibetan people and the followers of Tibetan Buddhism around the world regardless of whether they practice Dorje Shugden or not. Religious freedom has everything to do with uniting people not based on their religion.

      Actually the Dalai Lama and his Tibetan leadership should never get involved with the Karmapa selection controversies. The Karma Kagyu Karmapa selection controversy and massive schism really damaged many people’s faith in their lineage tremendously. Dalai Lama got involved with the Karmapa issue and now look at the mess boiling over, still unresolved. The Dalai Lama spoke against Dorje Shugden and look at the mess in the Gelug School, still unresolved. The Dalai Lama not firm about rangzen (freedom) or autonomy (middle path) for Tibet confused people further. He first said he wants full freedom for Tibet from China for three decades and assured everyone it would happen. Nechung had advised him the same. Then now the Dalai Lama changed to autonomy (middle way-umay lam) of Tibet within China. So many Tibetans are fighting, confused and disillusioned with this confusing change again. When the Dalai Lama gets involved it seems, something untoward happens and it does not get resolved. More and more issues are dividing the Tibetans and not uniting them. This certainly does not look good for Tibetan Buddhist practitioners around the world. This is the trend.

      Later, Tenzin Peljor, you will become disillusioned also. I am not telling you what to do or judging your future but Tibetan politics corrupt and destroy. That is why Tibetan leaders lost their country and still cannot regain it. When you involve yourself with Tibetan leadership and government politics you will become disillusioned and leave too. You will see the double standard policies, corruption, lies, power struggles and that it's hidden behind religion. What do you get from this? A front seat at the Dalai Lama's gatherings? So what. A picture with the Dalai Lama that you can flash to the world to say how good you are? A private audience with him and you get some advice you can get from any Tibetan lama? You get prestige or a paycheck? Some name and some rank above other Western Buddhists? Many senior Western supporters who started in the 1970's quietly practice Dharma but do not get involved with Tibetan leadership as they have seen through it. Many Tibetan intellectuals like Jamyang Norbu are speaking up more and more against Tibetan leadership. Tibetan Buddhism is good but not when mixed with politics. There are good Tibetan lamas who are genuine. But not when lamas get involved with politics and CTA. You yourself should just retire and be a good monk somewhere and practice quietly and not be involved. Study, learn, do retreats and gain attainments. You will be very hurt in the end and this is beyond the Dorje Shugden issue or any of what we are discussing now. You just watch this come true.

      Tenzin Gyeche

      This is quite good reading:

      This one


    • Tenzin Gyeche on Feb 5, 2016 at 5:13 am

      (Part 4)

      Dear Tenzin Peljor and everyone who’s reading this,

      There’s a few extra thoughts here that I’d like to mention.

      1. Have you noticed that on most anti-Dorje Shugden sites, the moderators do not allow any opinions that are pro-Dorje Shugden, any reasonable debates and they don’t approve your membership. These forums and so-called platforms that discuss the Dorje Shugden issue are very one-sided and lopsided. They reflect the unfairness of the Tibetan leadership as only the view of the Tibetan leadership is allowed, no debates, no divergent thoughts and no counter thoughts, which does not portray them as a democracy. Tibetan leadership claims to be democratic and there is overwhelming evidence that they are not. Look at the letter from Congressman Dana Rohrabacher as one of the examples. The social media and webpages around the world that are anti- Dorje Shugden reflect this attitude. No talk, no conversation, no debate, they are right, everybody else is wrong. The people on these anti-Dorje Shugden sites will engage in personal attacks on the appearance, lifestyle, belief system, race and habits of those who don’t agree with them. These cyberspaces that do not allow any talk are 100% reflective of the Tibetan leadership in Dharamshala’s view of the world, which is democracy ruled by dictatorship. Only the Tibetan leadership’s view is correct and no one else’s although they are just ordinary human beings too.

      2. Again, why is only the Dalai Lama the most important lama out of everyone, and his view must be listened to only? He can come up with so-called scriptural passages to back up his views against Dorje Shugden, but simultaneously there are many more scriptures, including the ‘Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors’ which is 556 Tibetan-folio paged volume dedicated to Dorje Shugden that can counter easily. Trijang Rinpoche composed this text before his passing in order to preserve the lineage of Dorje Shugden as he foresaw obstacles coming in the future and rightly so. You can also quote from here and there to back up your views. But there are two sides. Just because you are on the Dalai Lama’s side, and he is powerful, famous and rich, does not mean his view on this issue is correct. People in the world have a habit of following and listening to the famous and well known people and thinking that since they are famous and well known, their view is definitively correct. But time and time again, this has been proven wrong.

      Everyone’s spiritual connection and bond to their lamas are as important as the bond that the Dalai Lama’s students have with him. The Dalai Lama started it all by saying Dorje Shugden is bad and hurting the sentiments of hundreds of thousands of people. Dalai Lama even accused his teachers of being wrong (video: Dalai Lama says his gurus are wrong? Violence against Dorje Shugden practitioners ) which shocked so many erudite teachers of many monasteries. The Dalai Lama started this. Prior to this, all the Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world did not have ONE SINGLE ISSUE about or against the Dalai Lama. In fact, all Dorje Shugden practitioners prior to the 1996 ban were faithful, loyal, loving, and caring of the Dalai Lama. There were no issues with Dorje Shugden prior to this. If Dalai Lama can say his teachers and past great masters such as Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche, Panchen Rinpoche were wrong, then it means the 14th Dalai Lama’s knowledge and research far surpasses those of every other hundreds of Gelug masters that practiced Dorje Shugden for four hundred years and even his teachers’. That is very arrogant perhaps? If the Dalai Lama can say his teachers are wrong which is a big no-no in tantric Buddhism’s teacher-disciple code of conduct, then everyone can say the Dalai Lama is wrong. Everyone can be wrong so why listen to the Dalai Lama?

      The monasteries had the stick choice of whether they wish to follow Dorje Shugden or Dalai Lama. This stick choice was just a masquerade forced upon the monks to show their loyalty to the Dalai Lama. Many monks within the Gelugpa system of Gaden, Sera and Drepung in Tibet and in India are still practicing Dorje Shugden secretly and underground for sure. Openly the Dorje Shugden monasteries in Tibet are growing. If you want to talk about Dorje Shugden punishing and so-called killing people, many have been killed, dispossessed, invaded, overtaken and forced to convert when they went against the Gaden Phodrang (Tibetan government) in Tibet’s bloody history. (See So, do not only target Dorje Shugden. That is Tibetan history which recounts this happening to everyone.

      3. The tantric master and lineage holder Ra Lotsawa ( suffered great adversities when the leading lamas of his days countered him by saying that Yamantaka was not a genuine practice and was leading people to the 3 lower realms. He had to use his occult powers acquired from Yamantaka’s practice to defeat and even kill some of the leading lamas or adversaries of his day. Read Ra Lotsawa’s biography carefully. The violent elimination of a few distorted adversaries meant that the benefits of Yamantaka’s practice can reach millions even until the present day. I am not advocating occult ritual murder of adversaries in any way, but Tibetan history is ‘rich’ in accounts of noble killings of the spiritual nature by so called spiritual minded people. The Tibetan emperor Langdarma was killed by Buddhist monk Lhalung Pelgyi Dorje due to his fierce anti-Buddhist eradication and extermination of Buddhist followers and monasteries. Langdarma was a strong proponent of Bon and against Buddhism and did what he can to wipe out Buddhism. If Langdarma had lived, Buddhism would never have survived in Tibet. Hence the monk, Lhalung Pelgyi Dorje assassinated him in the name of Buddhism. This Buddhist monk who had taken vows against killing was the one who assassinated Langdarma.

      So should we eliminate the Yamantaka practice and lineage because its lineage holder Ra lotsawa killed adversaries? Then should we stop the growth of Buddhism in Tibet because the Buddhist monk Lhalung Pelgyi Dorje killed Langdarma? A Buddhist committed such a crime as to kill the Bonpo Langdarma Emperor of Tibet. Isn’t that a bad name for Buddhism? So should they have repressed Buddhism further?

      Again I am not supporting any type of violence or murder, but to give an example of Dorje Shugden killing people of other sects if that is true at all and that is why his practice should be banned is ludicrous. Dorje Shugden gains nothing by killing people of other sects. So don’t quote this murder and that murder just stereotyping Dorje Shugden because spiritual murder abound in Tibetan history, which is full of violence based on religion. Buddhism is a peaceful religion until you mix it with barbaric people or people who use religion for personal gain. There’s no proof that Dorje Shugden killed this or that person. If you read texts of the other Dharma protectors of the Tibetan pantheon, they all have a clear history of eliminating or killing this or that harmful person, so don’t take it out of context. All Tibetan Dharma protectors have histories and legends of violence, eliminating adversaries, punishing the samaya breaker and destroying wrongdoers. So be fair when you quote and highlight only Dorje Shugden.

      4. Furthermore, Dorje Shugden is a formless being (Tibetan: sukmey), the Dalai Lama is a form being. One is immortal, the latter is not. Dorje Shugden is 400 years old, and in terms of Tibetan Dharma protectors, he is quite young and has a ‘long way’ to go. The Dalai Lama at 80, according to human terms, is quite advanced and his time is short. He is even predicted to be the last Dalai Lama. Those who have abandoned Dorje Shugden have abandoned the practice, those who have continued are continuing. The ones who are continuing the Dorje Shugden practice will only find even more creative ways to spread it to people in this generation and many more generations to come. While the anti-Dorje Shugden people will slowly fade as the Dalai Lama dissolves into clear light, which we hope will not be soon of course. We wish the Dalai Lama no ill will. In other words, Dorje Shugden is immortal but the Dalai Lama is not. The followers of Dorje Shugden will continue but the followers of the Dalai Lama will not. One thing is for sure, the Dorje Shugden practice will definitely spread as the Dalai Lama has made him the most famous Tibetan Buddhist deity in the world. And there are so many more people, millions in fact, who know nothing about the Dorje Shugden ‘controversy’ in this generation, and will not know in the future but will be introduced to Dorje Shugden’s practice. When you and I, Tenzin Peljor, are long gone, there will definitely be disseminators of Dorje Shugden’s practice that will continue. So much was done in Medieval Europe to destroy the pre-Christian religions and they had gone underground for a while. Yet, they have survived till present day and are even protected by their present day governments. Similarly, the powerful Bonpo adherents during the beginning of the Buddhist advent in Tibet 1,000 years back, who did their utmost to stop the spread of Buddhism, but failed. Dorje Shugden’s lineage will grow, and it will not die. Many will make sure of this. There are hundreds of young lamas being trained in India and Tibet who continue to learn the lineage of Dorje Shugden and who will mature into powerful speakers. You see, due to the ban by Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden’s practice is protected in Tibet ( The fact is, Dorje Shugden’s lineage will not die. But the conflict that is happening at this time due to the ban on Dorje Shugden can end earlier if the Dalai Lama’s camp extends the perennial olive leaf of peace, reconciliation, and positive conclusion for the benefit of both sides. It will do the Dalai Lama’s reputation and his exiled government so much good to remove the illegal ban and inhumane segregation of the Tibetan people and Tibetan Buddhists around the world based on the religious choice of Dorje Shugden alone (video: Tibetan Public Talk - The True Facts Part 1 and video: Tibetan Public Talk - The True Facts - Part 2). The Dalai Lama will not win in this but Dorje Shugden will. Similarly, if we think about it logically. In every civilized country in the world, Dorje Shugden practice is allowed, will be practiced and protected by charters of religious freedom. No Dorje Shugden follower is marginalized in civilized democratic countries by their government unlike the Exile Tibetan government who persecute their own people if they choose Dorje Shugden’s practice as their form of spirituality. No democratic government will ever speak out against Dorje Shugden or any religion and especially on their websites unlike the Tibetan government in exile. It is only in the undemocratic mechanisms of the Tibetan exiled government that a twisted and convoluted version of religious freedom exists. Freedom to the Tibetan government is to do what they say and just that. You have the ‘free choice’ to follow their edicts or not.

      The followers of Dorje Shugden are growing, especially among those who know nothing about the controversy, the Dalai Lama is aging. Once the Dalai Lama passes away, his Tibetan exiled government will be disbanded and all Tibetan refugees will be in a quandary as to what is next. The future does not look bright. You’ll be out of a job, Tenzin Peljor. The Tibetans in India are on a extremely fragile tight-rope yet the Tibetan exiled government continue to waste time on segregating Shugden followers and destroying Shugden practice.

      5. If the Tibetans in India were so devoted to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government, why do most of the Tibetan government workers have dual passports or passports of other countries? Why does Sikyong Lobsang Sangay have a US green card? Why are thousands of Tibetans immigrating to Europe and North America, gradually but surely losing their culture? If they were so loyal to the Dalai Lama, wouldn’t they stay in India near their leader till the end? There’s a saying, it may or may not be appropriate, when times are good, we eat steak, and when it’s not, we just have bread. So why are all the Dalai Lama’s ‘loyal subjects’ paying black market prices to Tibetan agents for US Green Cards and scrambling over to the West? Why don’t they stay in India with the Dalai Lama? Confusing isn’t it, when you look at Tibetan politics? As I said Tenzin Peljor, in Part 3, the longer you are involved with the Tibetan political mechanics, the more you will be as disillusioned as Tibetans are.

      6. The Dorje Shugden ban has brought no benefits, only arguments, loss of faith, fighting, accusations, separations, segregations, and they’re tearing up the Tibetan religious fiber from the core. Tibetans were also issued identity cards stating that the bearer would not associate with Dorje Shugden practitioners. Those without this card may not attend common prayers or even buy goods from shops. To me, this is blatant religious persecution. My motivation in taking time to reply you Tenzin Peljor, is that I am a frequent visitor of this tremendous blog site. There are Tibetan people who are brave and risk their lives to speak up against the ban, but they are that passionate because of the wrongs committed against their lineage. I visit this website quite often since a friend introduced me a few years back. But I have not commented till today, until I saw your interesting post. I think the argument here is not whether Dorje Shugden is good or bad, but one of allowing religious freedom, which includes the Dalai Lama NOT giving advice to anyone against Dorje Shugden. This has escalated into damaging his reputation. Remember, the spiritual connection or so-called ‘samaya’ is not only to the Dalai Lama and his samaya doesn’t override other teachers or masters no matter how famous he is. We want peace, we want reconciliation, and we would like the Dalai Lama to stop talking about Dorje Shugden as it is inappropriate for someone with his station in life. The Pope condemns no religions, not even witchcraft, which Christianity is traditionally against. It would be reputational suicide for the Pope to denounce any spiritual path. So it is the same for the Dalai Lama. We have to tell the Dalai Lama that times have changed, this is not Tibet anymore. The Dalai Lama in the West puts on his smiling face, and tells people that he ‘advises’ against the Dorje Shugden practice. But with his own Tibetan people, it is not advice but an order. Look at this video: video: Dalai Lama Encourages Expulsion of Monks. He knows how to charm his Western audiences because he knows that if he is seen as giving an order, it will not sit well with their cultural identification of him being a compassionate holy man. Therefore in the West he said he advises against the practice, but to his own Tibetans, it is not advice. You are kicked out of the monastery, separated from your families, not allowed to work in any Tibetan post, not allowed to go to any Tibetan hospitals and schools if you practice Dorje Shugden. That is not advice or religious freedom, but a dictatorial decree. Maybe these things I’m saying about the Dalai Lama is not very pleasant or nice. But since you said the Dalai Lama can make mistakes, I’m telling you he is making a big mistake now.

      Tenzin Gyeche

      You can also watch this powerful documentary about three successive monarchs in England, killing and persecuting their subjects in the name of religious beliefs, based on their own agendas: video: Ghosts And Witches Of Olde England. Religious persecution has been around for centuries, if not longer. But in today’s democratic and free world, this should not be happening. This is not happening anymore in free democratic societies unlike the Tibetan government in exile.

      Would the Dalai Lama agree with this? This is the abuse Dorje Shugden practitioner have to tolerate daily because of the Dalai Lama’s ‘advice’:



    • Pastor Elena Khong Jean Ai on Feb 5, 2016 at 5:21 am

      Hi Tenpel,

      Thank you for your comment. Just let me ask you one question – can His Holiness the Dalai Lama make mistakes?

      If His Holiness can make mistakes, then how is it possible he did not make a mistake with the ban?

      Thank you.

      • Tenzin Peljor on Feb 5, 2016 at 6:22 pm

        Hi Elena,
        of course he can make mistakes. He said himself that he made a mistake by practicing Shugden.

        However, he carefully analyzed the canonical status of Shugden, using different methods – (1) historical evidence, (2) political reason, (3) spiritual insight – and came after thorough scrutiny to the conclusion that Shugden practice creates obstacles and problems and that taking refuge in him is contrary to the Buddhist refuge (which was already said by the 13th Dalai Lama who scolded Pabongkha Rinpoche for spreading the practice).

        You can find here historical speeches by the 14th Dalai Lama why he changed his stance on Shugden and what Trijang Rinpoche said about his findings: It would be good to read this as a basis for a sane discussion.

        With respect to “the ban”, there is no overall ban as this phrase wrongly suggests.

        The question is rather about valid cognizers … How valid is the view that Shugden is a Buddha, a vow breaking, harming spirit but also a manifestation of Manjushri, a hungry ghost or a dangerous spirit that creates discord and schism in spiritual communities (as H.E. Tai Situ Rinpoche said).

        A valid cognizer by nature is incontrovertible. The question is rather whose perception and investigation got really hold of its object and is a valid cognizer? Hard to say, that’s why everybody has to check for themselves …

        However, my point is not so much about valid cognizers but the fallacy going along with projecting infallibility to the gurus.

        Best wishes,

        • Tsongkhapafan on Feb 5, 2016 at 6:48 pm

          it does not make any sense to assert that the Dalai Lama can make mistakes but that he is unmistaken with the Shugden ban, especially when you see the terrible effects it has created. These are not the actions of a realised being, it would seem, as Buddha would never create the conditions for others to suffer. It becomes clear that we cannot accept anything that the Dalai Lama says unless it accords logic and with the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni.

        • BK on Feb 6, 2016 at 2:25 am


          It seems we are all in agreement that Lamas can make mistakes. The Dalai Lama said that he made a mistake by practicing Dorje Shugden. He could also be mistaken about his “mistake” in practicing Shugden, meaning to say that he is mistaken about Dorje Shugden’s demonic nature when in fact Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being.

          If we focus on determining who is at fault, who made mistakes, who is wrong, there will be no progress on the Dorje Shugden issue.

          The real issue here is how Dorje Shugden practitioners are outcast and discriminated against as a result of their beliefs. This has been going on for decades. Shugden practitioners have been expelled from monasteries, have their homes set on fire, been stabbed, endured name calling, endured abuse etc etc etc because the Tibetan population at large thinks they are Chinese spies or that they want to harm the Dalai Lama’s life.

          The real MISTAKE that the Dalai Lama has made is not to put a stop to such abuses and discrimination. That is undeniable no matter how we choose to analyze it. There can be no good or right in condoning acts of discrimination and violence against a group of people just because they do not agree with the Dalai Lama’s view on Shugden.

          Forget about theological arguments on who is right or wrong about Dorje Shugden’s nature. Let’s just look at the horrible abuse of human rights and religious freedoms that Shugden practitioners have to endure and lets talk about whether it is right or a mistake to treat them in this way.

        • Wei Theng on Feb 11, 2016 at 7:05 pm

          Dear Tenzin Peljor,

          If you are saying that HH Dalai Lama can make mistake, then he can make mistake previously, he can make mistake now, as well as in the future. So, how could you be so sure about his current view about Dorje Shugden is not a mistake?

          If we go down the road to say highly attained lamas will make mistakes, it is surely never ending on one’s argument just to say who is right and who is wrong. After all, you & I are not enlightened and we are not in the position to judge.

          The current issue about the Shugden ban is that there are a lot of discrimination, segregations and harms towards the Shugden practitioners. Shugden monks are expelled from Monasteries, their family and friends could not get in touched with them or will be labelled and get the same kinds of treatments. They will also have to enduring name calling, curse being accused as Chinese spies, enduring abused, they are not allowed to go in hospital, get education, go to grocery shops or businesses, restaurant etc etc etc. It is definitely violated human rights and religious freedom. Why one can tolerate and respect other religions but cannot respect a mere Shugden practitioner who just want to practice the practice given by his/her Guru and of no interest on any politics or power or harm anyone?

          Buddha teaches compassion, loving kindness to all sentient beings. The Shugden people are getting treatment worse than the hungry ghost or hell realms beings. The three lower realms being can also enter any monasteries and get blessings or transferring of merits by high lama or three jewels but not the Shugden practitioners. Do you think Buddha would be agreeing to this discrimination, segregation and abuse?

          For me who are not a Tibetan, out of no where and I also received vulgar words and cursing on my own and my Guru’s social media page. I was called Chinese Pig, Chinese Dogs, liars, devils etc just because of my protector practice. Are you agreeable to this too? Are you agreeing to these abuse and curse :

          The point is not who is Dorje Shugden or who is right and who is wrong. The point is that everyone should be respected for their belief and religious practice. That’s why the ban need to be lifted. That’s why we sincerely appeal HH Dalai Lama could put a stop to the discrimination and abuse by asking his followers to respect others.

          We do not need you to agree and follow our religions and practices, we just need to be respected and allow to believe what we want to believe.

          Om Mani Padme Hung

          Thank you and kind regards.

        • Lew on Feb 12, 2016 at 2:00 am

          If we agree that HH Dalai Lama can make mistakes, then we can assume that He also makes mistakes about the ban towards Dorje Shugden. Given all the masters can make mistakes, then I would rather listen to my Guru who has been very kind to me all these years. (I am not saying HH Dalai Lama is not kind, just that He didn’t teach me any Dharma).

          One of the things that bother the most is the discrimination and outcast of Shugden practitioners. There is a ban, and it is not wrongly suggested. There are signs in Tibet to shun Shugden practitioners. My guru has to face with verbal abuses EVERYDAY on the internet just because He is a Shugden practitioner.

          My question is, why would HH Dalai Lama endorse such actions? Why would HH Dalai Lama asks His disciples/people to be kind to everyone, but when His disciples/people are harsh/violent against Shugden practitioners, HH Dalai Lama kept quiet? Why didn’t HH Dalai Lama stop the abuse and discrimination? Why HH Dalai Lama allows signs against Shugden practitioners everywhere?


        • Pastor Elena Khong Jean Ai on Feb 14, 2016 at 8:45 am

          Tenzin Peljor,

          Let’s go back to your initial posit – the Dalai Lama can be wrong and therefore all gurus can be wrong. Well Tenzin Peljor, you are promoted as a teacher and guru. Since gurus can be wrong, you can be wrong too so why should anyone take note of what you say? If you’re not perfect, then no one should follow you as a model of spiritual progress since you are no better nor any different compared to us.

          Again, returning to your initial posit – all gurus, including the Dalai Lama can be wrong. But like the Dalai Lama can be mistaken, everything you Tenzin Peljor therefore say, conclude and assert can also be mistaken too. Therefore we are not beholden to keep the same opinions as you.

          And since the Dalai Lama can be wrong, then Tsongkhapa can be wrong. So why bother quoting them? Ashvagosha whom the Dalai Lama quotes said that you view your teacher as perfect; is he wrong too, and is your view correct that gurus can make mistakes? And based on that, is the Dalai Lama wrong to quote Ashvagosha?

          For you to call your perspective a ‘saner’ one is based on your projections that what you say and what you have interpreted is through the lens of sanity. What I see from MY ‘saner’ perpective is someone who is being selective with his scriptures, and using largely copy and paste methods to overwhelm people. A mark of someone who truly understands a subject is that they can convey something complex using relatable, understandable terms. Are you trying to impress people with your knowledge, or are you actually trying to communicate a point?

          Who are you to judge what is a mistake and what isn’t? Is your view perfect that you have interpreted the teachings correctly? And since you say the Dalai Lama can make mistakes, is His Holiness’ view perfect that he has interpreted the scriptures correctly and come to the right decision about Shugden?

          If you want to start down that road, then it opens up the potential for all of His Holiness’ actions to potentially be mistakes. So what conclusion do you follow and what do you not follow? If you are in a position to judge what is right and wrong, and employ your “critical inquiry” as Joanne Clark has mentioned, then why do you need a teacher at all since you know best, since your conclusions (based on critical inquiry of course) will always trump your teacher’s advice, and since you know better than your spiritual guide?

          If there is no overall ban, then you had best write to Sera Je and ask them to end their badge campaign, as well as campaign for all Tibetan settlements to remove their signs. It seems futile to impose a badge campaign to discriminate between Shugden practitioners and non-Shugden practitioners if there’s no ban / policy to uphold. You should also campaign for the dissolution of the wall separating Gaden Shartse and Shar Gaden, and then dissolution of the division between monasteries; all of the monasteries should be joined back together again, and the khamtsens reunited WITHOUT any conditions like “give up your practice of Shugden”.

          How does Joanne know the Dalai Lama that well to assume that his loyalty is to the value of critical inquiry? How does she know His Holiness well enough to assume he doesn’t have other reasons? And why does she also impose the assumption that everyone should hold the same loyalties as His Holiness? Are we not allowed to exercise our own freedom of thought to direct our loyalties wherever we want?

          By the way, I do find arrogant that anyone assumes we have not accessed nor read the Dalai Lama’s anti-Shugden speeches, which by the way are available elsewhere on the Internet. Employing my critical inquiry, the fact that you link to your blog leads me to conclude you are only here to direct traffic to your own site. But isn’t it nice to know you are actually welcome to debate here and that your comments, although asserting views different to ours, are not deleted? 😉

          Pastor Jean Ai

    • Pastor Shin on Feb 5, 2016 at 5:24 am

      I agree with your point that people can make mistakes. Hence, I believe that His Holiness the Dalai Lama made a mistake on the Dorje Shugden ban. This is my choice and chosen path, to practice Dorje Shugden.

      • Joanne Clark on Feb 5, 2016 at 10:03 pm

        My problem is that clearly no one who is refuting Tenpel’s points has read the Dalai Lama’s reasons for coming to his decision on Shugden. For example, one of the reasons His Holiness sites is the fact that previous Dalai lamas had already warned on the dangers of Shugden. So the Dalai Lama clearly states that his loyalty towards the lineage of the Dalai Lamas was just as important as his loyalty towards his teachers. He had no choice but to make a choice and decide between the positions of Trijang Rinpoche and the 13th Dalai Lama. To do this, he had to bring in his foremost loyalty, which is to the value of reasoning and critical inquiry, as Tenpel has shown. The Dalai Lama then researched and reasoned and came to his decision. Has anyone who criticizes him read the results of his research and reasoning? I have read that and I have also read the points of view expressed by Shugden worshippers and I have reflected on them– this is the approach Buddha, Tsongkhapa and Atisha recommend, not blind devotion.

        • BK on Feb 6, 2016 at 4:59 am

          For every quote that Tenpel has given to illustrate his point that teachers can make mistakes, 100 others can be given to illustrate that the Guru is faultless. We could argue and debate till the cows come home on whether Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being or a demon. At the end of the day, I will not be swayed because I follow the teachings and instructions of my teacher, and you’ll follow yours, I’m sure.

          So why focus on the differences in beliefs as to whether Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not (he is of course) when we should be dealing with the real problem of DISCRIMINATION and ABUSE against those who disagree with the Dalai Lama’s point of view?

          The Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc worship different gods, have different beliefs, follow different spiritual practices. Should we come down on them, berate them, discriminate against them, abuse them, burn their houses, not allow them to enter our shops and businesses, spread rumours about them just because they think Buddhism is idol worship or because they worship an unenlightened being?

          In the exact same way, Dorje Shugden practitioners firmly believe that Dorje Shugden is a deity worthy of worship. So why do so many people feel it is necessary to do such things against Dorje Shugden practitioners when it would be completely and utterly unacceptable to do the same to those of other religions? Since when has it become acceptable to enforce one’s religious views on another person, and to do so with viciousness, violence and worse?

          So the real issue is not the theological differences but the acts carried out against those who have different beliefs. And it has got to stop. The Dalai Lama has turned millions of people against Dorje Shugden practitioners with his statements. Shugden practitioners have suffered tremendously as a result.

          The Dalai Lama can just as easily stop the discrimination and abuse by asking his followers to “live and let live”. That would be the right thing to do and that is what we are asking for. Not for everyone to agree on religious beliefs but to allow everyone to believe what they want to believe.

    • abby f on Feb 6, 2016 at 6:44 am

      Hi Tenzin Paljor,
      I have some questions for you too.

      1. Quoting from what you have posted above:

      That’s why also Je Tsongkhapa wrote in his commentary on the tantric vows that if your master gives an “improper and irreligious command” don’t follow it.

      My question is, is it proper or religious to expel monks away from monasteries just because they practice Shugden that SUDDENLY deem to be wrong or evil? Is it proper or religious to put down someone’s “God” or “Buddha” by calling and emphasizing them as evil spirit or devil?

      If you say His Holiness was wrong with His Shugden practice decades ago, then the ban or the “advise against” Shugden could be wrong too, wrong because of “improper and irreligious”.

      Buddhism is about compassion, tolerance, acceptance and equanimity. But in this Shugden issue, we all see segregation, discrimination, hatred, separation, last but not least, religious chauvinism… Just like how you want to “debate” with us with the intention to tell us “you should stop praying already”… If you practice tolerance and acceptance, we practicing Shugden bring what harm to you? You might say, Dorje Shugden will harm His Holiness’s life, but is this statement proper or religious? It sounds superstitious more than religious.

      2. Quoting from what you have posted above:

      Thus, the Buddha gives us his permission to critically examine even his own teachings. Buddha suggests we make a thorough inquiry into the truth of his words and verify them for ourselves, and only then “accept them, but not out of reverenced”. Taking direction from statements such as these, ancient Indian monastic universities, such as Nalanda, developed a tradition whereby students would critically subject their own teachers’ scholastic work to analysis.

      My question is, why when Tsem Rinpoche and other lamas that practice Dorje Shugden being attacked, humiliate, and labeled as traitor when they disagree with His Holiness’s view on Shugden? Why the monks in Gaden and Sera monastery in India have to be expelled when they disagree with His Holiness view on Shugden? Why not debate and discuss but expel and “advise against” Shugden practice was given to them?

      3. You may quote the examples of Lord Atisha and Tsongkhapa of how these 2 masters go against their masters, but one thing to remember: their outcome is beneficial for the Dharma.

      But like what you wrote on the above, “His Holiness rejects the false view on Shugden by one of his his most precious gurus, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.” it creates the ban, creates segregation, separation, disharmony, intolerance among the Buddhist… all these are not beneficial for the growing of Dharma at all and all these pain and fear and hatred are taking place within the Tibetan communities in India while we are discussing this issue comfortably infront of our PC.

      My conclusion is that if you want to say His Holiness was wrong with His Shugden practice decades ago, look at what is wrong with the ban on Shugden practice too! Don’t be selective. You can say it is not a ban it is just an advise, whatever it is, pain is pain, segregation is segregation, disharmony is disharmony…there is something very wrong with this issue because it is not beneficial to anyone.

      One last thing, how do we know if we really understand the definitive meaning of what His Holiness is manifesting? I will not think I know it all, I will do as what you have shared on the above:

      Do not rely merely on the person, but on the words;
      Do not rely merely on the words, but on their meaning;
      Do not rely merely on the provisional meaning, but on the definitive meaning; and
      Do not rely merely on intellectual understanding, but on direct experience.

      I will continue to practice the Dharma and totally believe in the teachings which teach us compassion, tolerance, equanimity and acceptance. I will continue to see His Holiness and my lama as flawless Buddha and I truly believe His Holiness has a greater purpose with this issue, we should just follow the Buddha’s teachings to be a kind and compassion person.

      • Tenzin Peljor on Feb 6, 2016 at 7:55 am

        I lack time to fully engage in a discussion, however, good that there is a discussion …

        Just one point which I stumbled upon while scrolling through the discussion, “My question is, is it proper or religious to expel monks away from monasteries just because they practice Shugden…”
        I think you miss the point. There was an unequivocal majority vote within the monasteries – the Stick Referendum, based on the Vinaya – to separate from those who wish to continue Shugden worship. Every (religious or mundane) community can decide and vote what is acceptable or not acceptable within their community. This is a common thing and nothing sinister or discrimination.
        Since Shugden practice is considered by many to invoke problems and especially schism and discord in communities, communities can decide to not accept such practices in their boundaries in order to keep the community or harmony intact. To speak about rights must also include the rights of those who have a different stance than you. A majority vote against Shugden worship in a monastic community is perfectly fine as far as I can see. However, to ban Shugden practitioners from shops for the public is discrimination, wrong and against the Indian constitution …

        For some background and differentiated information see the interview with Prof Barnett here:

        About the Stick Referendum here:

      • Tenzin Peljor on Feb 6, 2016 at 8:08 am

        I will take time hopefully next week to read more and to reply in detail … just caught the para at the end of your comment “I will continue to practice the Dharma and totally believe in the teachings which teach us compassion, tolerance, equanimity and acceptance.”

        Well, this is great but if you do that you will face some difficulties because Shugden KILLS and MAKES SERIOUSLY sick those who practice non-Gelug teachings. While the Mahayana Sutras clearly state that a Bodhisattva receives, transmits, practices and upholds ALL THE DHARMAS there are in order to help sentient beings, Shugden kills those Gelugpas who do that. Therefore, there is a contradiction in practicing Shugden and following the teachings about love and compassion, the Sutras, and non-partisanship (the latter was stressed by Tsongkhapa as a main qualification of any Mahayana student). How can you reconcile what Trijang Rinpoche wrote in “Music Delightening …” with your approach of love and compassion for all sentient beings? He wrote about Shugden in that text:

        Furthermore, whether they were lords of Tibet, great lamas who held the political power of the throne, lamas and tulkus, great or small, with illustrious lines of incarnation, holy beings rich in scriptural and realized qualities, high lords of vast lands and works, those haughty with pride of family lineage, dominion and wealth, any who hypocritically claimed to be followers of Protector Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings while remaining unsatisfied with Je Lama’s precious Teachings of Sutra and Tantra which, in terms of view, meditation, and action, need not crave more from any other tradition, and, instead, mixed, polluted, or confused them with other modes of view and practice, whether lay or ordained, regardless of status, there have been many who have met with unpleasant wrathful punishments, such as being punished by authorities, litigation and legal disputes, untimely death, and so forth. Such swift, decisive signs appear to direct perception. Here praise is offered to that manifestation as a great wrathful protector who raises the Yellow Hat Teachings to the heights of the heavens.

        Why should someone be killed for practicing Dharma from other schools? Tsongkhapa and Atisha learned the Dharma from different masters of different schools, they were totally non-sectarian.

        Another point: what is creating suffering? The Buddhist answer is: clinging and ignorance. What is the cause of suffering in the Shugden issue? The Buddhist answer is: clinging and ignorance.

        • abby f on Feb 6, 2016 at 5:05 pm

          My questions are not long or complicated. They seem long because I quoted what you wrote. Well you can take your time to answer, I will wait. 🙂

          How convenient to say Shugden kills and harms Gelugpas who practice non-Gelug teachings.

          Answer me then, Music Delighting was written even before His Holiness “advise against” the practice of Dorje Shugden and when His Holiness Himself practicing Dorje Shugden decades ago, I am sure He had read about this also because Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang wrote “Music Delighting” in year 1967. Why is that at that time, His Holiness is OK to accept Shugden? Why is that other lamas who say Shugden is evil NOW didn’t say Shugden is evil back then? Why all the high lamas, abbots, geshes or learned monks who used to practice Shugden back then didn’t say anything when they read what is written in “Music Delighting” like what you have posted?

          Reason is, because any sane person can see the definitive meaning of the scripture/text, not only the literal/provisional meaning because if this is not the case, why back then no one say Shugden is evil since the text was written in 1967 and Shugden practice has exist much earlier than “Music Delighting” was written. Why Shugden is evil after 1996 and after His Holiness wrote a prayer for Shugden?

          Another question. If you want to take the meaning of scripture/liturgy by its literal meaning, or the provisional meaning, answer me is that the practice of Palden Lhamo, Kalarupa(Damchen Chogyal), and Mahakala ARE VIOLENT AND NOT EVEN BUDDHIST WAY? Because there are words like “kill”, “destroy”, “blood”, “gore” in their prayers!

          If Shugden is this evil and harmful, why don’t all the high lamas just bind him and destroy him so that Shugden can never harm people anymore? Buddha and enlightenment attainments cannot win over a spirit like Shugden, is this what you mean?

          It is so funny to see people who are living in 21st century still believe in a spirit can kill a person. I am shocked that you are one of them.

          “To say the Nyingma lamas can be hurt by Dorje Shugden, to say the Dalai Lama can be damaged or his life shortened by Dorje Shugden, in the monastic debate courtyard, you will be defeated within a few minutes with logical debate. How can a great Nyingma master, any great Nyingma master, be harmed by a spirit, a ghost, an evil being? If they can be harmed by evil beings, a ghost or a spirit, then they are not great masters, are they? We go to great masters to seek refuge, we go to great masters to receive teachings, we go to great masters to protect us from harmful beings. So if these great masters can be harmed by evil negative beings, then they’re not great masters, they’re not attained. Then that means Dorje Shugden can hurt the Buddha himself, can hurt Tsongkhapa.” ~ Tsem Rinpoche | read full article here: You will find more answers here. Have a good day.

          PS: I am waiting for your answers still.

          • Maik108 on Feb 12, 2016 at 5:04 pm

            Hi Abby,

            I just saw your post and wanted to offer some correction:

            Trijang’s ‘Music’ text did indeed appear in the late sixties and was more or less instantly controversial. The Dalai Lama began distancing himself from the practice very shortly thereafter, this is well documented. The ‘Shugden issue’ did not begin in 1996 with the NKT’s involvement, it began in the seventies.

            I practice Shugden myself. And at the same time I see the Dalai Lama’s reasons for concern and they are valid. The ‘killing’ attributed to Shugden in the texts goes back to Tagpu Rinpoche’s vision and the praises he composed based upon it. One should also understand the context of Tibetan Buddhism during Je Pabongkha’s time, his Gelug reformation and the sudden introduction of Shugden as a major dharmapala (which he had not been previously). This practice went hand-in-hand with a more conservative, ‘sectarian’ approach, in which it was strongly advised not to mix different traditions. Again, the reasons for this are primarily power, the struggle for supremacy, the sudden ‘threat’ of the Rime movement, etc.

            The real reason we are all writing here is due to the ridiculous and racist campaign launched by the ISC (by the NKT) that has faked proof of discrimination, attempted to undermine faith in the Dalai Lama (a serious tantric downfall, btw) and have unwittingly played into the hands of the Chinese who continue a violent suppression of Tibet (I say this having been a very happy practitioner within the NKT)

            In conjunction with this, your group have launched an incredibly savvy media-ad campaign promoting Shugden all over the world as some kind of flower-power Buddha of Peace. THESE are the reasons this subject has blown out of proportion, and why we’re all discussing it!

            As for the theme of this chain: Of course guru’s can be wrong. The list of names dropped by Tenzin Gyeche represents all kinds of scholars and masters of differing traditions, schools, etc. They can’t all be right on all of their points!

            At the same time I agree, if we say Guru’s can be wrong, obviously so can HH Dalai Lama, wherefore his advice against Shugden can also be wrong. It is a personal opinion. I think clearly the “democratic” vote was a mistake.

        • Pastor David Lai on Feb 11, 2016 at 6:42 pm

          Tenzin Paljor,
          I think you know very well that the teachings can be definitive and interpretive. This aspect of the teachings is interpretive and many lamas like Kyabje Zong Rinpoche had long explained that Dorje Shugden is not punitively out to harm those who mix the teachings. The stories told in Music Delighting text serves as a cautionary tale that was told in the traditional sense. It is not to be taken literally that Dorje Shugden is out to punish. If you are going to quote traditional tales told in the text, please bear in mind that they are traditional tales and most of the time, they involved highly attained beings and they could be enacting a ‘divine play’.

          Do you expect us to believe that Dorje Shugden would harm us just because we practice non-Gelug Dharma? What about Chinese Mahayana practices? What if we recite the Heart Sutra in Chinese? Would Dorje Shugden harm us because of that? There are some practitioners in asia maintain their traditional Buddhist practices and even ancestor worship after they have adopted Dorje Shugden practice.

          There are no cases of anyone being harmed and in fact, all we hear is that Dorje Shugden practice is efficacious, saves lives and has benefitted many people. Therefore, I do not see where you are coming from as what you say in the text is very different from what people experience in their practice.

          • Lester Lim on Feb 13, 2016 at 3:47 pm

            I recite Chinese sutras, have gurus and blessings from other Vajrayana schools, the teacher whom I am most indebted to mixed Buddhism and Daoism in the practices he has given me, I practise Shugden too. So far nothing happens to me. My career has improved and I have just been blessed with a wonderful baby girl.

    • Tenzin Yeshe Gyeltsen on Feb 6, 2016 at 10:35 pm

      Tenzin Peljor,

      Obviously what you are trying to convince people is not working. On Tsem Rinpoche’s blog here there is a blog post aptly named DORJE SHUGDEN:MY SIDE OF THE STORY and this single blog post has over 150,ooo views. You can see here-

      Tsem Rinpoche is just one Dorje Shugden lama and there are so many more speaking out in Nepal, India, the West, China, Tibet, Mongolia. They are becoming less worried about the threats from CTA. This trend will only increase. There are many Shugden lamas who are in their teenage years now being trained for the future generations in India and Tibet and some in the West, so this will only grow. Your propaganda with all your ‘scholarly’ quotes will not win anyone over. Your quotes is to hide and confuse us and it does not. It does not impress us either. Since you say all lamas can make mistakes, then don’t quote any lamas to back up your point. You are shooting blank bullets by saying lamas and even Dalai Lama can be wrong. If they can be wrong, why quote and rely on them? They all can make mistakes and therefore unreliable. Even don’t quote Tsongkapa as in your books, he can be wrong too.

      I included pictures my nephew has saved for me for you to see that even this blog site of Ven. Kyabje Tsem Rinpoche has over 6 million views. The respect Kyabje Tsem Rinpoche is winning in Tibet and the West and among many Tibetans in India is growing very big. The outreach of one single Dorje Shugden lama like Kyabje Tsem Rinpoche is reaching to millions that you cannot possible reach. Whatever Dalai Lama and his ‘government’ want to say is just for short term. Their time is ending soon I am sorry to inform this. Nothing lasts. The Dalai Lama is elderly and without him the Tibetan so called ‘government’ will not last. It’s over soon. (I thank my nephew to help me to type all this and correct my writing)

      Good luck to you. One day soon, you will feel lost and wonder what you were fighting for all these years. You will feel disillusioned about the Tibetan leaders/leadership as so many thousands of Tibetans have already. You will feel disillusioned about your words against Dorje Shugden. remember Yamantaka was heavily spoken against when Ral Lotsawa brought him to Tibet. Even Ral Lotsawa had to use powerful siddhis to destroy and kill the enemies of the dharma. Just like 5th Dalai Lama had to use the Mongol leaders to crush and kill his enemies to establish his rule. So don’t talk about Shugden killing people. Do you know anyone in YOUR life that you know personally that has been killed by Shugden? I doubt it.

      If Tibetans were really loyal to Dalai Lama from the depths of their hears, they would never leave India and stay nearby Dalai Lama. The very fact many Tibetans have immigrated to the West shows you they have no hope in Dalai Lama and Tibetan ‘government’s’ leadership for the future.

      You don’t have to practice Shugden, but you don’t have to speak against him either. You are from East Germany and you live in united Germany now. How many political differences East and West Germany had for decades and hurled insults at eachother? Now you are unified and one people. Does that now feel good? Well you should help unify the Tibetan people and not divide them with the Shugden issue. Shugden Tibetans and Tibetans are all Tibetans. Unite all Tibetans including Shugden Tibetans, pro Dalai Lama Tibetans, Muslim Tibetans, atheist Tibetans, Bonpo Tibetans, Middle Way believing Tibetans (umay lam), full freedom believing Tibetans (rangzen). The Tibetan govt should accept all Tibetans and stop dividing them. They should NEVER talk about the Shugden issue as a government. Shame on them for being shortsighted and that is why they cannot get their country back after 50 years because they are shortsighted. In Germany you have Jews, Muslims, Christians, aethiests, Buddhists, witchcraft people, druids and all of that. You have people against your leaders and pro your leaders and they all speak up and yet they are still all Germans and not segregated and separated due to difference in opinions. All of you are STILL GERMANS AND SHOULD BE UNITED. So should Tibetans. You being a foreigner of Tibet should not encourage further division by using Dorje Shugden. Don’t divide us with Shugden issue.

      My friendly advice to you,

      Tenzin Yeshe Gyeltsen

      my side


    • Li Kheng on Feb 6, 2016 at 11:19 pm

      Thank you for your comment as well as references you shared.

      It is good to know that the greats of the Gelugpa lineage practice what the the Buddha taught, which is to examine the Dharma teachings and not accept them based on blind faith. I also notice that despite the differences in opinion between these great sages like Atisha and Lama Tsongkhapa and their Guru, neither side impose their philosophy or principals on others. I see this as what is being practice by Tsem Rinpoche in this blog: Rinpoche shares his opinion in an open and transparent manner so that anyone who has interest is able to learn and apply what they feel would benefit their spiritual journey. If readers have differences in opinion, they are of course free to share in constructive manners like you are doing. BTW, thank you for your sharing from which I have also gained information from 🙂

      However, one matter that I find that anyone Dharma practitioner would stand together on is the need to end the suffering fellow Dharma brothers and sisters have to ensure as a result of the ban on Dorje Shugden. Perhaps interpreted inaccurately, Dalai Lama loyalists discriminate, suppress, threaten and act violently towards Dorje Shugden practitioners – lay and ordained. Those who believe Dorje Shugden is bad can certainly steer clear of his practice. However, there is no need to invade the privacy of those who choose otherwise. If they feel the need to impose and prevent Dorje Shugden practitioners from exercising their freedom to religion, where is the limits? Where do we draw the line? As global citizens, if we accept this breach of human rights, we are consenting to the same practice of discrimination towards other faiths, race and creed.

      The view of a Guru being infallible is to set us on the path to receive tantric practices as you say, which I assume would be beneficial to the student. However, our expectations from the Guru in different scenarios etc arise from our minds and its habituation. None of the Guru would claim to be perfect and stated in the 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion, one of the trait of a Guru is humility. In fact, great masters always claim to “flawed”. I do not think the point here is not just whether Gurus can or cannot makes mistakes but to reflect on how we react to these mistakes or non-mistakes. I understand Rinpoche’s message, besides always encouraging the practice of Guru devotion, is also acting to prompt practitioners to think for themselves and ultimately, act in accordance to the teachings of Buddha.

      Diversity in our world and the choice to accept and to live in harmony with this richness is what makes the Earth sustainable. As many faiths always look to Nature as a tangible form to illustrate the teachings, I think we can follow this wise direction as well. So, practice Dorje Shugden or not, love the Dalai Lama or not is a private and personal choice of each. However, protecting the sanctity of the precious human life, is the responsibility of all men and women who declare a spiritual priority.

    • Martin C on Feb 7, 2016 at 5:36 am

      Dear Tenzin Peljor,

      I have seen this kinds of ‘debates’ before where a self-appointed dissenter purposely calls into question a belief system of another, creates malcontent and then suckers everyone into defending the dissenter’s assumptions that are baseless to begin with.

      You have written a whole essay here and thrown in names of Lama Tsongkhapa and Atisha as a shallow attempt to substantiate an argument which in essence cannot be defended, which is this – regardless of what you may or may not think about any person’s faith/religion, what gives one person the right and authority to discredit and disrupt the religious practice of another. This is the only question we need to address.

      There are many different religions in the world and for each religion, anyone can find any number of faults in the said religion and tear it apart. Similarly there are any number of people who can justify why it is a valid religion. And within the same religion, there can also be many differing views and approaches and more often than not, the views are not in accord. Ultimately a religion is a function of one’s own experience. What has it got to do with you?

      You may say His Holiness the Dalai Lama finds against the practice of Dorje Shugden. I note that His Holiness has been a believer of Shugden for as long as His Holiness has advised against the practice. And in addition, you have claimed that His Holiness is definitely prone to errors. So why is His Holiness the Dalai Lama only correct when it suits you and not when it doesn’t? Who and what determines when His Holiness has made and error and when he has not? You?

      In any case, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has said his opinion of Dorje Shugden is merely an advice and if that is correct, why are you here to push the said advice to the point of suggesting that not accepting the advice is to oppose the Dalai Lama. Then it is not advice but coercion.

      Is it your opinion that Dorje Shugden is the ONLY religious practice that is wrong and the other religion in the world including witchcraft and satanic practices, all correct? If not, then why is it that you have never spoken against any other religious practice other than Dorje Shugden? Why are you making such a concerted effort to suggest that the Dorje Shugden practice is wrong? What is your interest in insisting that my religion is wrong? Who asked you anyway? If you disagree with any religious practice, then it is a simple matter of not practicing that religion.

      Does your own religious practice and ritual involve condemning the faith of others? I was informed by some who are familiar with you that you have made a career out of bashing Dorje Shugden and has dedicated an entire website to this task. I am not sure if that is true or not but I do find it odd if that were to be the case. I have never heard of any serious practitioner of any religion whose religious ritual is to condemn the faith of others as opposed to prove that his religion is true by his own behavior and actions.

      Your writing seem to want to hint that it is written by someone who is scholastic and yet I cannot reconcile how a supposedly scholarly practitioner of the Dharma would be so focused on the ‘faults’ of others instead of working on one’s own mind. I cannot see how bashing any person’s religion establishes yours to be the right? And if you are not insisting that yours is the right way, then what qualifies you to comment on the religion of another?

      Finally, you reiterated the holy words of the Buddha-

      Do not rely merely on the person, but on the words;
      do not rely merely on the words, but on their meaning;
      do not rely merely on the provisional meaning, but on the definitive meaning; and
      do not rely merely on intellectual understanding, but on direct experience.

      And against those holy words I see that in fact you are asking Shugden practitioners not to trust their own direct experience with the deity and instead, place trust in the words and interpretive meanings of another, such as yourself.

      I don’t know you and I have not heard anything about your scholarly works or publications if any. But if you wish to claim to have an intellectual understanding of some scholarly works, I note that you in fact have zero understanding that Dorje Shugden practitioners such as myself continue to abide by our Protector because of our direct experience of how he has brought us closer to the Buddha’s teachings.

      Why quote the Buddha only to distort the meaning to suit your argument? If you truly believed the Buddha, you would have understood that the Buddha taught many different Dharmas and countless students have been liberated by abiding by their own respective and direct experience of methods prescribed by their respective Gurus.

      • Lloyd Chan on Feb 7, 2016 at 6:20 am

        Honestly, I don’t understand much of the discussions here. Too academic for my limited mind. But for me to believe something when there is no solid proof one way or another, I will have to look at the track record of the person making the statement to see how reliable the person is.

        I see that the truth is always very consistent and does not flip-flop. Jesus Christ was consistent to the end. As was the Buddha and Mohammed. Whether you like what they taught and said or not, you have to agree that their message were consistent and did not change suddenly.

        With all due respects to the Dalai Lama and I am really a fan of his writings, I see a lot of sudden changes of mind. History shows that the Dalai Lama regarded Chairman Mao as a hero and then Mao became a tyrant a few years later. Then Dalai Lama said its good to fight to liberate Tibet of Chinese rule and a few years later, the Dalai Lama stopped chasing for independence. In 1993, the Dalai Lama said: “The economic system of Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability. Marxism is concerned with the distribution of wealth on an equal basis … as well as the fate of those who are underprivileged and in need, and [it] cares about the victims of minority-imposed exploitation. For those reasons, the system appeals to me, and it seems fair.”

        And then in 2014 in Washington he said “I develop more respect about capitalism.”

        Before, the Dalai Lama wrote prayer to this god Shugden and now he says this is a spirit.

        How can I be sure that if I trust what he says now about this god, that he will not change his mind again later? I am being asked to gamble with my karma. Very risky.

        Sorry I don’t mean to criticize him. Just very confusing.

      • Joanne Clark on Feb 13, 2016 at 4:54 am

        I think it might be helpful for people to look at the sequence of the Dalai Lama’s actions:

        First, he dutifully followed his junior tutor’s advice (Trijang Rinpoche) and practiced Shugden.

        Then, Ling Rinpoche– his senior tutor, who NEVER practiced Shugden– started expressing some reluctance about the practice.

        Then, Ling Rinpoche advised the Dalai Lama that he couldn’t receive Nyingma tantric teachings while still propitiating Shugden, that this would be dangerous.

        This concerned the Dalai Lama and he started researching and looking closer at the history of Shugden practice. He researched the writings of former Dalai Lamas about this practice. He then started advising against the practice, but in a mild way.

        Then there was the publication of the Yellow Book in which horrible, gruesome predictions were made about what would happen to any Gelug practitioner who so much as touched a Nyingma text. This publication had an effect and Gelug practitioners started staying away from Nyingma practices and texts.

        This is when the Dalai Lama made his move to more forcefully advise against the practice. And this part has to be seen in the context of the Dalai Lama’s role as leader of Tibet through its darkest hour– he believed that sectarianism was a vulnerability in the Tibetan culture and that it undermined the unity desperately needed if Tibetan culture was to survive and the Tibetan cause was to stand a chance. So he advised strongly against a practice that was causing dangerous sectarianism.

        Because from Pabhongka Rinpoche on, the practice has history of sectarianism, this can’t be refuted.

        The Shugden community complains that the Dalai Lama has divided the Tibetan people through his decision– but looking at the very divisive lies and propaganda I have seen coming from such groups as the ISC (and this website and I see very little attempt from the Shugden community towards unity and peace.

        • Martin on Feb 13, 2016 at 5:14 am

          Dear Joanne,

          With due respect, I think you have failed to recognise that the issue have moved way beyond all that you have said. You have presented nothing new apart from the same regurgitations that are baseless and nothing more than personal opinions. No one can infringe on another’s rights based on personal opinion.

          Nonthess such arguments as you have rehashed are effective in throwing the real issue out of focus.

          The issue is this – what right does His Holiness have in undermining a religious practice regardless of how he feels about it, especially given the fact that His Holiness travels the world preaching tolerance and in addition, His Holiness claims his exile government to be a democracy with a Constitution that protects all rights?

          And please try to go beyond the usual blatant denial and the well worn ‘there’s no ban but only advice’ approach. Given that the Tibetan government proudly publishes it’s criminalisation of the Shugden practice, it makes a mockery of the dialogue and shows insincerity.

          And for the record, Kyabje Ling Rinpoche did practice Dorje Shugden (please search ‘Kyabje Ling Rinpoche does Dorje Shugden on this blog) and Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche did give His Holiness Nyingma teachings while both were active Shugden practitioners. So you’re clearly wrong.

          PLEASE Joanne, let’s move beyond over-used rhetoric already.

          Best regards,

        • Tenzin Gyeche on Feb 13, 2016 at 5:53 am

          Dear Joanne Clark,

          Just for your information, His Holiness Kyabje Ling Rinpoche did respect, worship and conduct pujas to Dorje Shugden. Not only that, he also composed prayers to Dorje Shugden that are in use today. You can see here clearly:

          In the above link you can have the good fortune to listen to Kyabje Ling Rinpoche’s voice chanting Shugden puja prayers in Switzerland. So When the Dalai Lama said Ling Rinpoche does not practice Dorje Shugden, it is incorrect. Remember the Dalai Lama was not the ONLY close student of Kyabje Ling Rinpoche. Ling Rinpoche had many close students who can recount this.

          Pabongka Rinpoche was not sectarian. He promoted the Gelug Lineage for sure and that is the lineage he is from and nothing wrong with that. If you are a Buddhist and you don’t promote Christianity, you are not sectarian. You simply promote what you came from.

          Sakya Trizin promotes the Sakya lineage and not the Gelug. Is Sakya Trizin sectarian? Why even have a head of a lineage because that itself ‘cuts’ you off in a manner of speaking from other lineages.

          The great Nyingma Master Penor Rinpoche only promoted the Nyingma lineage and not the Sakya and Gelug, is he sectarian? Of course not. In fact he welcomed Dorje Shugden people to his temple in South India. See here:

          Pabongka Rinpoche being sectarian is baseless and written by some people jealous of his incredible fame. Everyone has their detractors. 100 years later people will read this and that and say Dalai Lama was sexist and made sexist remarks. So what.

          Pabongka Rinpoche was the teacher of Ling and Trijang Rinpoche. Ling and Trijang Rinpoche are the teachers of the current Dalai Lama. So majority of tantric teachings and commentaries the Dalai Lama is giving publicly now comes from Pabongka Rinpoche and via Trijang/Ling Rinpoches. So becareful what you accuse as Pabongka Rinpoche is Dalai Lama’s lineage masters.

          Whether you don’t practice Shugden and I do practice Shugden does not matter. What matters is we are both human beings. We will have our differences and it’s nice to discuss them out politely and with civility as we have done here. But Dalai Lama should not pick that one quality in me out and define me by it and bar me from activities or his public talks. It makes him look bad. I am so much more and so are you. Let’s have our differences and respectful to each other for many other similarities we both may have. The Dalai Lama is not a King anymore like he was in Tibet and he has to becareful how he speaks to modern, educated, intelligent people who will not stand for autocracy or dictatorship especially that his money comes from people all over the world. In fact the Tibetan govt is funded by our taxes. I use to donate decent sums to various projects of the Dalai Lama, his government in exile and the Tibetan refugee camps. I have raised substantial sums to their hospitals, old people homes and schools. But I stopped due to the Dorje Shugden ban discrimination. If I am so ‘dirty’ and ‘deluded’ for practicing Dorje Shugden, then return my money. All donations from Dorje Shugden people which is huge amounts for decades now, should be returned. Why despise us and bar us from Dalai Lama’s public secular events but take our money and keep it? Dalai Lama survives on donations as does his monasteries and he is an old man so better make peace and unite all Tibetan Buddhists from all walks of life and belief systems. Be kind, be tolerant and be open is my respectful message to Dalai Lama.

          It was a pleasure to reply to your comments. Again the Dalai Lama does not need to disrespect and ban people just because they practice Shugden. He should look past that and see them as people and extend a olive leaf to them and be kind. He should be kind to ALL sentient beings EVEN if they practice Dorje Shugden as compassion is without bias.

          Nice discussion with you Joanne.

          Tenzin Gyeche


          • Joanne Clark on Feb 13, 2016 at 10:39 pm

            Good grief, Tenzin Gyeche, does it “prove” that Ling Rinpoche practiced Shugden to have an obscure audio tape of some lamas chanting the practice? I don’t think there is any proof whatsoever without a video tape of Ling Rinpoche actually chanting this practice. True, there is a video of he and Trijang Rinpoche chanting Lama Chopa, supposedly to show that the audio is accurate, but one would have to be an expert in voice detection to know whose voice is whose in the video and then compare it to the audio.

            This is so much what I experience whenever I investigate the claims made by the Shugden community– flimsy evidence and outright lies. I don’t know why there is any need to scrap together flimsy evidence if your case is strong? If Ling Rinpoche were truly a devoted practitioner of Shugden as you say, then the evidence would be strong and visible, as it is with Trijang Rinpoche– you would find it in his writings and teachings and statements etc.– not in a scratchy obscure audio of some lamas chanting!

            As for Pabhongkha Rinpoche, here are some quotes from him:

            “… many from our own side, monks or laypeople, high or low, are not content with Tsongkhapa’s doctrine, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted this tradition with the mistaken views and practices of other schools, tenent systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly vast but are in fact mistakes upon mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths.”

            He also stated: “Apart from the doctrine of Manjughosa Tsongkhapa alone, the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus and Nyingmas are erroneous … for them liberation and the path to omniscience does not exist.”


            And also from that article: “Between 1938 and 1940, Pabongkha Rinpoche made repeated requests to Kham’s Kuomintang military governor, Lui Chuntrang, to forcibly suppress local Sakya, Nyingma and Kagyu monasteries for propounding a “wrong view of emptiness.” (These letters are sourced from Volume Cha of Pabongkhapa’s collected works).”

            But really, I know that you will just come up with some other obscure document or audio tape and our discussion will just reach that familiar impasse. I remember Rabten of the ISC saying once during the conference in London, “You have your sources, we have ours.” While I try to stay with sources that are peer-reviewed and more objective, I grant you your right to believe in your own database as you wish.

    • Choong on Feb 13, 2016 at 4:40 am

      Dear TP, I like your quote “Tsongkhapa always based his reforms strictly on logic and scriptural references.” very much. However, as other commentators here have shown, there is not much logic or scriptural reference to your and more importantly H.H. Dalai Lama’s effort to discredit Dorje Shugden. In fact, the mere acts by the various Dalai Lamas to destroy or discredit Dorje Shugden over the last 400 years or so, has in logical fact strengthened the case that Dorje Shugden must be an enlightened being.

  8. Julia Tan on Feb 4, 2016 at 9:12 am

    I took hours to read about the debate. I think Tenzin Paljor comment about HH 14th Dalai Lama made mistake on Dorje Shugden is acceptable. By accepting that I also think He made mistake not just this one. Sorry I’m not trying to be irrespecutful but Tenzin Paljor’s comment on all Lamas even highly attained Tulkus, even quoted Lord Tsongkhapa and Lord Atisha . I got very disturbed and more confused now. I started think who shall i believe in now? I need to clarify. Lord Buddha says we need to clarify if we have doubt or not understand.

    My question is (I’m getting very nervous now) what about 14th Dalai Lama has been making more than just this (DS issue) mistake? I think 14th Dalai Lama made the biggest mistake of taking the advice of Dorje Shugden of leaving Tibet in 1949. It was a mistake !!! Big mistake!!! He should stay back in Tibet then Tibet wouldn’t be taken by China at that time. Then there will be no Tibetan refugees settling down in India. Then there will be no Dorje Shugden protestors funded by Chinese government’s issue now. Because of this mistake so many Tibetan left Tibet following Dalai Lama for good but ended up in India as refugees. Don’t you think so?

    So if what Tenzin Peljo were saying that practicing Dorje Shugden is bad and so harmful in many ways, sorry I can’t copy everything he mentioned earlier, he also mentioned that at 13th Dalai Lama time He already realised that Dorje Shugen was harmful then why didn’t He started the ban at that time? So when He returned back as the 14th Dalai Lama, why was he still practicing? He forgot? No one reminded Him about it? If this is the case then He could have forgotten more things and have made more mistakes but no one knows about it! Wow that’s dangerous!

    Then why do I have to trust the 14th Dalai Lama that He is right this time?

    What about the next life he return as the 15th Dalai Lama and tells us. ” sorry it was my mistake, Dorje Shugden is not harmful at all. It was my mistake, now everyone can practice DS” then what?? CTA and all of you that are anti-Shugden practice Shugen again? Calling all monks and nuns back to the monasteries?

    I believe 100% that people can make mistake. Everyone does included Dalai Lama. But then why I still want to trust Him? From 5th until 14th half way he kept coming back, But why do I have to follow or listen to a Lama that made such a huge mistake through out so many lives time? He seems to have more mistakes then all other the lamas !

    Everyone knows that compassion is the basic practice of Buddhism. I beg you Dalai Lama to have compassion because everyone says you are the manifestation of Guan Yin, please lift the ban and accept us as who we are. People are suffering out there because of the ban.

  9. Pastor Elena Khong Jean Ai on Jan 6, 2016 at 7:28 am

    So if His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a Buddha, and has been a Buddha for at least 14 lifetimes, then are people saying that:

    a) a Buddha can become an un-Buddha, and the Dalai Lama temporarily became an un-Buddha to write this praise of Dorje Shugden?

    b) a Buddha can make mistakes, and the Dalai Lama made a mistake when he wrote this praise of Dorje Shugden?

    Either His Holiness is a Buddha and he knew full well what he was doing when he composed this praise (in which case the prayer is valid and the ban is wrong), OR His Holiness made a mistake in composing the praise (in which case His Holiness is capable of making mistakes, and therefore the ban on Dorje Shugden could be a mistake).

    There is nothing about this ban that makes sense, and it amazes me that people can continue to perpetuate it knowing full well how wrong it is. And the thing is, they’re doing it “because the Dalai Lama said so”. Well, His Holiness has manifested a lot of changes in decisions and opinions over the years.

    Over 30 years ago, His Holiness said Taiwan is bad; today, His Holiness says Taiwan is good.

    Over 30 years ago, His Holiness spoke for full independence; today, His Holiness promotes a Middle Way.

    And over 30 years ago, His Holiness the Dalai Lama said Dorje Shugden is good and even wrote a praise to him. Why don’t they remember that?

    How quickly people forget!

  10. Andrew Hibberd on Sep 11, 2015 at 5:36 pm

    the thousand arm compassionate being of chenrezig along with the holder of the truth of thsonkappa, would never spend my life listening only to his higness nor tsem , what can say is hh only said if you want to follow shugden do not to me for further lesson, my translation to hh words is go for it worship who you will and keep alive the truth of all of the teaching so that after this second turning of the wheel is completed we may move more peacefully into the third turning of the wheel this is my translation , i remember the teaching of paul from corinth and the speaking of the tongues a trick of course someone over the border can undersand the local tongue the truth lives inside the eyes can you love from dad

  11. Wan Wai Meng on Jul 11, 2015 at 4:09 am

    The Dalai Lama if he is Chenrezig can see Dorje Shudgen for what he is, in those many lifetimes as the Dalai Lama, from the 5th Dalai Lama onwards, as the ultimate spiritual and political head of Tibet, he could have taken action against Dorje Shudgen way before the 20th Century, one must ask why did not he not so? It would have been much simpler. To suggest that it is only now the Dalai Lama after investigation in this life has concluded that Dorje Shugden is a spirit is to suggest Dalai lama wasn’t a Buddha earlier but now he is Buddha to say Dorje Shugden is spirit. Does not make any sense.

  12. Sofi on May 20, 2015 at 10:05 pm

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing of prayer to Dorge Shugden by HH 14th Dalai Lama. It is clear that if 13th Dalai Lama sees Domo Geshe as Je Tsongkapa, surely then the practise of Dorje Shugden by Domo Geshe would have valid and beneficial. And if 14th Dalai Lama is the same mindstream as the previous Dalai Lamas, then he too would know that the Dorje Shugden practise blesses. After all he did write this prayer to Dorje Shugden as praise to him and had consulted the oracle of Dorje Shugden who successful help HH 14th Dalai Lama escape Tibet during the invasion by China. Most importantly, such highly attained and enlightened person as HH Dalai Lama will not have the karma to be harmed.

    During my recitation of this prayer towards the end of my daily sadhana, I also get a feeling that this prayer may also be a form of confession and apology to Dorje Shugden for all the sufferings cause by the ban. It is also requesting DS for continual blessings so that creation of negative karma may be controlled and pacified during the ban. Kinda an advance prayer written ahead of the future negative worldly events that will take place. Of course this is solely just my own feelings.

    I pray that HH Dalai Lama will lift this ban on the practise of Dorje Shugden in the very near future as there are too much sufferings by DS practitioners already.

    With folded hands, May we be blessed with Rinpoche’s good health and very very long life.

  13. tsemtulku on May 9, 2015 at 10:41 pm

    “If the Dalai Lama, if His Holiness the Dalai Lama can be harmed by Dorje Shugden, then we might as well not practice Buddhism anymore. If His Holiness the Dalai Lama can have his life shortened by a so-called evil spirit, any evil spirit, then can he be Avalokiteshvara? So on one hand you say, we say, I say, everybody says, he is Avalokiteshvara; on the other hand you’re saying that he can harmed by an evil spirit… Which one is it? Can he harmed by an evil spirit or is he Avalokiteshvara? Do you think Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri, Vajrapani, Tara all take refuge in something else to protect themselves from Dorje Shugden? How illogical is that? How illogical of people to say His Holiness the Dalai Lama can be harmed by an evil spirit, any evil spirit or “Dorje Shugden” evil spirit. How is that possible?” – Tsem Tulku Rinpoche

  14. Phng Keng Hwa on Apr 7, 2015 at 9:31 pm

    Dear Rinpoche,

    This post reminds me of the time you gave us invitations to go to India to see the current incarnation of Domo Rinpoche. For that, I thank you greatly for letting us see such a great teacher. Thank you for ‘taking’ some of my family on that journey. I was truly beneficial. Though I will admit that my eyes were not really open at that time, and even though it may still not be fully opened now, the eyelids are getting higher. And this is because of your teachings, so thank you for that. 😀 _/|\_

    Your humble student,
    Keng Hwa.

    P.S. The Dhal in the monastery was amazing! The tastiest I have ever tasted. 🙂

  15. Alice Tay on Mar 25, 2015 at 8:58 pm






  16. Frederick Law on Mar 24, 2015 at 12:06 am

    Both 5th and 14th Dalai Lama wrote prayes to Dorje Shugden, it shows that Dalai Lama know who Dorje Shugden is, and definitely benefited from blessing by the Protector. Although its more than 350 years apart, but Dalai Lama mind and attainment are still the same.

    The ban though has brought much problem to the Tibetan community and also the Dorje Shugden practitioner around the world, but certainly because of this ban, more and more people get to know who is Dorje Shugden, and even they have benefited directly from practice of DS. To us we might see it as a ban which are enforce for a wrong reason, but looking further, it is certainly a divine play that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are actually working together to bring Dharma to people who need it very much in this degenerating age.

  17. Daniel on Mar 20, 2015 at 8:25 pm

    ” Things change, Kundun.”

    Enlightened mind stays the same (perhaps, i don’t know), but phenomena changes constantly and activity that benefits will also change with that.

  18. Pastor Chia on Mar 19, 2015 at 7:39 pm

    After reading through this article ,one point has mention clearly that mindstream is the same and attained. Attainments cannot go backwards and at any age or any lifetime (incarnation) as he is highly attained.H.H Dalai Lama as renounce emanation of Chenrezig for many century ago, With respect His Holiness will not make mistake by to recognise who is Dorje Shugden ready are and compose prayer and worshipping him for 400 years ago. only high attain being able to recognise another enlighten being quality. Even His Holiness make such statement and cause the ban up to Dorje Shugden, people are so easy to believe to give up his practice and said bad thing against Dorje Shugden without knowing history and back ground. People who are believe in Dorje Shugden for example His Holiness Domo Geshe Rinpoche and Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang has incarnate back continue to turning the Dharma, is does not bring them down to three lower realm by doing Dorje Shugden practice.

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing this article,is important to study and get understand not creating more doubt.

  19. Pastor Gim Lee on Mar 19, 2015 at 2:10 am

    The fact that His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama composed the prayer to Dorje Shugden within this incarnation itself is a solid proof that Dorje Shugden is a reliable Dharma Protector, not a spirit.

    HH Dalai Lama is an emanation of an enlightened being, the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion Cherenzig, it means his mindstream is the same mindstream whether he was young or old as now. He has clairvoyance and can tell immediately if a being he met is good or negative. Since HH Dalai Lama saw Dorje Shugden as a very high being in Dungkar Monastery, then he cannot be making mistake.

    So later in 1996 when he said Dorje Shugden is a spirit, it means there must be a higher purpose for him to do so. A “Divine Play” as it is known. If HH Dalai Lama made mistake when he was younger, his previous incarnation cannot be making mistakes as well. Previous incarnations of HH Dalai Lama had been propitiating Dorje Shugden since the Great 5th Dalai Lama, hence, it is not logical that a highly attained being of so many Dalai Lama’s previous incarnation cannot differentiate between a superior being and a spirit.

    As stated in the footnote:
    “This prayer shows beyond the shadow of a doubt the enlightened origin and the “holy mind” of the King Protector as seen by His Holiness. No “ghost” can come from Tushita and Kechara, Maitreya and Vajrayogini’s pureland. No “ghost” can cause you to “soar the path of immortal liberation on unified wings of Sutra and Tantra”! “

    May this heart-breaking episode of Dorje Shugden be ended soon in order for the holy Dharma to be spread widely to benefits many sentient beings.

    Thank you.

  20. antoinette on Mar 18, 2015 at 10:25 pm

    Thank You for this very informative article. How is it possible that HHDL first composes prayers to Dorje Shugden and then bans the practice of Dorje Shugden.
    Dorje Shugden has been practiced for 400 years – how can all these highly attained monks and practitioners be wrong? This doesn’t make sense except if it would be for a higher cause.

    As stated in the article, Domo Geshe Rinpoche has founded Dungkar Monastery, which was the seat of the famous and respected Dorje Shugden oracle. Domo Geshe Rinpoche has reincarnated and His current incarnation was confirmed by the current Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden oracle in trance.

    Dorje Shugden is an Enlightened Protector. H.H. the Dalai Lama is the reincarnation of Avalokiteshvara. I trust my Guru who gave me this practice.

  21. Khoo on Mar 18, 2015 at 9:59 pm

    It is very confusing that why would HHDL suddenly announced that Dorje Shugden is a evil worldly spirit after so many highly attained lamas including the 5th Dalai Lama and 14th Dalai Lama himself have practice and composed praises for Dorje Shugden for 400 years. These prayers by both 5th and 14th Dalai Lama have no doubt recognising Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being.

    What is the true intention of 14th Dalai Lama imposing a ban on Dorje Shugden is still unknown, but more and more are believing that His Holiness is doing this for a higher cause, more than what we ordinary people could see from the surface. It is because of this controversial that the practise of Dorje Shugden is being brought to the global level and more people including the westerners, being attracted by the Buddhism and makes the Dharma growing in the west.

    The prayers from Dalai Lama are truly beautiful and explained very well the nature of Protector Dorje Shugden.

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing these beautiful prayers.


  22. pammie yap on Mar 18, 2015 at 9:52 pm

    “Attainments cannot go backwards and at any age or any lifetime (incarnation) as he is highly attained.”

    Very true. I always have this question. How can highly attained masters say one thing now and then do something else later? I truly respect His Holiness but I just find it ‘weird’ that He composed such a beautiful prayer to Bhagwan DS then retract the truth.

    His Holiness Gurus were also faithful Bhagawan DS practitioners, they can’t be wrong in practicing Him. If they are wrong, means that what they taught His Holiness are also wrong, which I doubt.
    Highly attained beings like HH Trijang Rinpoche and Domo Rinpoche are back and they are still continuing their attainments and practicing Bhagawan DS.
    Bhagawan DS practice do not bring us to the 3 lower realms. Or else I don’t think any of the attained beings that practiced Bhagawan DS can reincarnate.

  23. Pastor Henry Ooi on Mar 18, 2015 at 9:22 pm

    Indeed it is baffling and illogical why the Dalai Lama decided to ban the practice of Dorje Shugden. A ban that has caused and is still causing so much hardship, pain, disputes and fights between spouses; among family members, friends, sangha members and people in general. And it is equally baffling why the Dalai Lama did not publicly stop those people who are strongly enforcing the ban and in the process causing harm to those who practice and rely on Dorje Shugden.

  24. DR on Mar 18, 2015 at 8:39 pm

    Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, as the Junior Tutor of the Dalai Lama (who is also the Root Guru of many Gelugpas from humble novices to the highest Lamas) introduced Dorje Shugden practice to the Dalai Lama in the 50s. Then in 1996, during a tantric initiation that the Dalai Lama was giving, he said that Dorje Shugden was an evil spirit whose actions were detrimental to the cause of Tibet. It is strange that the Dalai Lama took 30+ years to realize his mistake of doing Dorje Shugden practice. The statement that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit is unsubstantiated and contradicts the view of many spiritual masters of the Gelug tradition. Neither is there evidence to support the claims that the Dalai Lama’s health and the interests of the Tibetan people have been affected. And if the practice of Dorje Shugden is bad, then definitely we have to say that Trijang Rinpoche is wrong, and that all Gelugpa lamas in the Dalai Lama’s own lineage would be wrong too? So where does that lead us?

    Whatever may be the reasons, it is definitely at the expense of sincere practitioners of Dorje Shugden who continues to live in much anxiety and in painful dilemma. I pray that all parties involved in this controversy can meet soon for a dialogue to find an amicable solution to bridge the divide between the Tibetan Buddhist community.

  25. stella on Mar 17, 2015 at 9:12 pm

    Dorje Shugden practice does not send practitioners to 3 lower realms. In fact, Dorje Shugden is a highly praised & attained Dharmapala and recognized by HHDL himself. Therefore we can safely practice Dorje Shugden practices. The recognition of Dorje Shugden as enlightened Dharmapala had been consistent since the 5th Dalai Lama, hence the adverse decision in 1996 could be a political driven affair.

    Thank You very much Rinpoche for sharing the precious photos and explanation to dispel misinformation of DOrje Shugden for us.

    With folded palms,

  26. Andy on Mar 14, 2015 at 10:24 am

    What more interesting is, the other way round. If Dorje Shudgen were to knew this why did he not inform Trijang Rinpoche or others high lama? Why cause difficulties to particioner when DS were suppose to protect and disable obstacles for practioner to learn dharmmA? Dear Rinpoche, I knew you have your attainment and guru devotion… I truly respect and appreciate you for the effort in spreading this holy teaching. I too have my due respect to DS as a protector of Ganden, however I just felt to indirectly question HHDL attain mind is just not nice. If HHDL is wrong it solely means that the whole linage starting from Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. I am sorry Rinpoche to have to said this, but the more arguments on who is right and who is wrong no longer what both parties should do, but rather to practice what your root guru teaches. And yes the teaching will be separated as predicted… And shall thn Matriya will be down to revive it again… Therefore I hope Rinpoche truly consider my opinion when doing any DS posting without indirectly hurting HHDL. Thanks.

  27. nicholas on Mar 14, 2015 at 1:24 am

    Thank you Rinpoche of the post.
    It’s obvious that HH Dalai Lama which we believe as Chenrezig has the clairvoyant to be able to see if the being is positive or negative.

    The Dalai Lama has been practicing Dorje Shugden and come to a point that compose the prayer and enthrone Droje Shugden is definitely based on his ability to see him as a positive and enlightened being. If this point can be a mistake then all the teaching from Dalai Lama can be a mistake, the lineage teaching of Buddhism can be a mistake too. Then nothing about the enlightenment from the Buddha teaching we should learn and practice for,

    The other point as stated in the post of the unmistaken Domo Geshe Rinpoche which is a great Dorje Shugden Lama reincarnation and being recognised is a prove of Dorje Shugden is not a spirit else should be taking rebirth in lower realm. This is quite logic and straight forward to think of.

    The ban has created a great impact for the growth of the practice but it’s also created much suffering. It’s time to lift the ban for the better and the harmonious for all people directly or indirectly affected from the ban. The fact and logic had iron out the quality of Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being which a lot of people needed him the most at this degenerate time.

  28. Wei Theng on Mar 13, 2015 at 12:39 am

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing with us the Prayers by the 14th Dalai Lama as well as the 5th Dalai Lama.
    The mindstream of the holy masters are same and consistent regardless of time. HH Dalai Lama is the emanation of Cherenzig. So, his should be consistent in his mindstream. With the Dorje Shugden prayers composed by the 5th Dalai Lama, then the 14th Dalai Lama, to me, it is solid proof that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened beings and not evil spirit at all. How could Dalai Lama be wrong? If Dalai Lama is wrong, Buddha or Buddhism would be wrong too. That’s not logic right?
    Therefore, I would agree with Rinpoche’s logic that HH Dalai Lama is working with Dorje Shugden to spread Dharma to many more people during this degenerate age.

  29. Joy on Mar 12, 2015 at 11:26 pm

    I like the questions that Rinpoche has presented here for us to use our head and think logically.

    It makes no sense how Dorje Shugden, assuming is a malevolent spirit, could fool not only H.H. the Dalai Lama but so many other high Lamas like, Domo Geshe Rinpoche who even the Dalai Lama sees as emanation of Je Tsong Khapa, for so long? And if that’s what Dorje Shugden did, then we’re saying that Dorje Shugden is way more smarter and more powerful than all the Buddhas because he’s able to manipulate and trick them for so long? Simple just does not make any sense which leaves only one logical conclusion that the ban on Dorje Shugden is a political propaganda.

    It also allows the possible theory that HH the Dalai Lama is working hand in hand with Dorje Shugden in the most uncommon way to spread Dharma further as predicted by H.H. Trijang Rinpoche in ‘Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors’. Hence the advice given by Trijang Rinpoche to NOT ‘take sides’ when we experience this unfortunate event, for it is an illusory play beyond our us.

    Unfortunately most people these days are too lazy or busy to further investigate and find out more before they easily jump on the band wagon and follow whatever is spoon fed to them.And it becomes unquestionable when the message or misinformation comes from a highly influenced source such as H.H the Dalai Lama.

    It is quite amazing to see how even the most logical person would just agree/accept blindly to whatever information given to them. All you need to say is… “H.H. Dalai Lama said so.”

    So many were harmed and divided. Many choose to react instead of just doing a bit more research. I hope those who come across this article would be able to think a little more before launching attacks on Dorje Shugden practitioners.

    If the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig – Buddha of Compassion, then this Dorje Shugden ban would be a shameful injustice of the worst kind of apartheid in Buddhist history. More over if there was no “higher purpose”, all the sufferings are in vain. It is high time the ban is lifted so that the sufferings, disharmony and disunity amongst Buddhist stops. It’s all in H.H. The Dalai Lama’s hands to to end this.

  30. Julia Tan on Mar 11, 2015 at 10:35 pm

    Dear Rinpoche,

    This is a precious article. It really helps to clear the doubts in people’s mind who are confused about Dorje Shugden practice. This prayer really speak by itself. But why HHDL now stopped everyone from practicing Dorje Shugden? Dorje Shugden is such a powerful enlightenment protector. He saves people’s lives. Whoever have trusted in Him, He granted their wishes if the intention is good. He helps without looking at who we are. He just help like a Buddha. Many many of us have seen how miracles happened. How can a holy protector like this being ban? One thing for sure, Dorje Shugden is not a demon who send you and me to hell but help us to achieve attainments that would bring us back again and again to practice Dharma and benefit others. Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Kybje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H. Panchen Lama and even H.H. Dalai Lama are good examples. HHDL himself wrote prayer of Dorje Shugden!

    This is one of my favourite prayers everyday. Because it is short, sweet and composed by H.H. Dalai Lama. I recite it when I need help, for friends, strangers, even animals that need help. I recite it with kawang, golden drink offerings and mantras. Whenever I recite it I feel compassion from HHDL and the power of Dorje Shugden as one. This connected me to HHDL whom I have never met but I can feel His love to Dorje Shugden that’s so strong that he would actually happily recite this prayers everyday. This made me feel peace, safe and full of faith to the powerful Dharma. I believe in HHDL, I believe in my Guru H.E. Tsem Rinpoche and of course I have full faith to my holy and lovely protector who has been guarding me day and night.

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing this prayer with us. It is very precious and significant in deed.

    Love, Julia

  31. Edwin Tan on Mar 9, 2015 at 12:19 pm

    Dear Rinpoche,

    I like how Rinpoche presents the hypothesis that highly attain and realised beings’ mind streams are always same and attained.

    That being can HHDL many years back praised Dorje Shugden and composed prayers to Dorje Shugden, and years later said Dorje Shugden is negative. This really is thought provoking and makes us question ourselves what is the real situation.

    If HHDL is accurate, that will mean to say all the other highly attained lamas, all the lamas recognised by HHDL cannot tell if Dorje Shugden is good or bad? Then won’t it makes us wonder if whether all of these high lamas are qualified to teach and guide us, with all deepest respect….

    The 5th Dalai Lama and the 14th Dalai Lama composed beautiful prayers to Dorje Shugden, this is proof enough that Dorje Shugden is recognised as a supreme Wisdom Buddha.

    I have been praying to Dorje Shugden for many years, if there is even anything negative about Him…wouldn’t I be dead or deep in the trench already?

    My faith and devotion to Dorje Shugden is always strong.

  32. Pema Thinley on Mar 7, 2015 at 1:08 pm

    Dear Rinpoche,
    This precious words of yours will benefit lots of people driven blind and make them question deeply. Thank you rinpoche for such dharma. I cannot really imagine how i also would have been having those negative thoughts if i have not met your teachings and your blessings. May all across this words to make them question deeply.
    Thank you _/\_

  33. David Ang on Mar 5, 2015 at 10:45 am

    Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche gave a radio interview about Shugden in Dharamsala, India, stating…

    “I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me…and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing…

    I also don’t want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

    I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas] would not let me.

    I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness…

    I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness…

    Some have told me, ‘If you abandon the Protector [Shugden], there is no knowing what will happen. We will not consider you a lama [as guru]. The people of Chatreng are strange, very wild and unruly. We do not know what they may do.’

    It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me.”

    In my own Labrang I have recently witnessed a kind of factionalism and I have discovered that one person in particular was planning an evil conspiracy. This plan was to murder my assistant, Tharchin, and to implicate His Holiness’s government in exile with this odious crime. The conspirator aimed to become chakzoe [manager] of my estate. Tharchin has been very kind to me, more so than my own parents, and has taken care of me since I was three years old. As well as managing the affairs of my Labrang.

    With my own ears I heard this person discussing on the telephone a plan to assassinate Tharchin. It is really a matter of great sadness and surprise, especially since the person involved in this ploy has been very close to me as well. If he succeeds in his plan, it would be a cause of great trouble for the Labrang, as well as a cause of disgrace to the Tibetan government and His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

    These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know. That is why I made this statement.”

    Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging Shugden followers to stop seeking him, “I do not wish to be in touch with you.”

    Another Buddhist wrote recently about the misleading Shugdenite statement above…

    “Your post is misrepresenting and contorting the facts. Also you should know, that Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche is moderate in Shugden worship, he does not force anybody to practice it and leaves the decision to the other person.

    You also should know that Kelsang Gyatso, head of NKT, does not acknowledge Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche to be the reincarnation of Trijang Rinpoche and that there are no contacts between NKT and TBI or Kelsang Gyatso and his former teacher.

    Also you should know that Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche is concerned himself about fanatical Shugden followers and escaped them when they tried to murder his assistant, with the aim to put the blame for the assassination into the shoes of the Dalai Lama. and the TGIE. (Tibet Government in Exile)

    Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche concluded his message urging the followers of Dorje Shugden to stop seeking him. He said: “I do not wish to be in touch with you…”

    After this statement Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche moved to the United States of America, where he lives only with his closest students.

    Since Trijang Chogtrul Rinpoche states that “These are not lies, but true facts which I want everyone to know.” I think it is appropriate to quote here what he said himself in the interview with the Dharamsala radio station.”

    (an NKTite responded to this comment by saying (falsely) that the Trijang Buddhist Institute is nothing more than Shugen practitioners, (falsely) that the Ganden Tripa feels that Dorje Shugden practitioners are perfectly valid to “represent and transmit” the Gelug Dharma, that Kelsang Gyatso rejoices whenever anyone has the good sense to recognize the Dorje Shugden practitioners have been among the cream of the Gelug Sholars and Yogis of the past several hundred years (false).)

    (from another NKTite….”no wonder why trijang chocktrul rinpoche has distance him self from the DL his lies have become unbearable for many, all i see is a man clinging to to much power in an attempt to unite all the schools under his directorship this is shameful.” Another NKT falsehood. Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche web site praises the Dalai Lama.)

    (it has been reported that Kelsang Gyatso was told by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, Kelsang Gyatso’s purported root guru, that he will not take rebirth (reincarnate). Also, The “internal” NKT constitution consists a passage which states that Tulkus are not accepted within NKT. Thus, NKT does not recognize rijang Chocktrul Rinpoche as a legitimate reincarnation, and presumably not a legitimate Shugdenite as well.)

  34. Li Kim on Mar 5, 2015 at 12:47 am

    This is very interesting. On the onset of things and the Ban plus all the protests around the world, I cannot help but think of the hypocrisy behind the Ban. There was a point in time that I did question the 14th Dalai Lama but I always remember that HHDL is the emanation of Chenrezig. With that in mind I am looking for a deeper meaning. This article does indeed make me think more. It is like the duality of life. There is dark and light in every situation.

    Having composed this Praise in the presence of another erudite master Domo Geshe Rinpoche is not a mere accident. It is powerful and shows full clarity that Dorje Shugden cannot be a demon/spirit. I do not find it possible that such attained Lamas can be wrong. Not to mention we have great Lamas like Pabongka Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche…and the list goes on, who practise and rely on Dorje Shugden.

    Ok there is a Ban. The right question is why is there a Ban? And not conclude Dorje Shugden is a demon.

    I feel for the people who have suffered tremendously from this Ban and also those who have lost their families and lives because of this Ban. I pray that the Ban be lifted. I believe that whatever is the higher reason of HHDL it should be achieved by now. More people must speak up. Shugden practitioners need to know people care and are making a stand for them.

    I practise Dorje Shugden and I am grateful for this. If there is any demon in question, it is the one in myself and with my daily prayers of this praise by HHDL I am protected and blessed.

  35. GraceLeong on Mar 4, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    This article as well as a few others reiterates how “inconsistent” the reasons brought forth to label Dorje Shugden as bad. Those reason can easily be countered by real and logical explanations. This being done with pure intention to speak the truth and not to put anyone down. Lord Buddha has always advised his students to study and contemplate and not just have “blind faith”. Thank you Rinpoche for highlighting all the important facts and events to help us learn.

  36. GraceLeong on Mar 4, 2015 at 4:24 pm

    Hi Dylan
    Enlightened beings can also choose to be reincarnated in human form :)Cheers

  37. Toh Cheng See on Mar 4, 2015 at 8:59 am

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing this article that will clear of doubts . It shows to proof that HH Dalai Lama actually support Dorje Shugden. I hope and pray that HH will very soon reveal his support .

  38. Wan Wai Meng on Mar 3, 2015 at 1:03 am

    The Dalai Lama ‘ unbroken reincarnate lineage is a source of inspiration for all of us. Here is a being who could have it’ easy’ hanging out in the pure lands but he chose to manifest in harsh tibet.

    The dalai lama being the highest scholar of the land due to his unparalleled wisdom and insight, Cannot be thinking Dorje Shugden as a Buddha one moment and demon in the next.

    Dorje Shugden and dalai lama association began during the time of the great fifth dalai lama. Is it logical that chenrezig Cannot identify demon from Buddha? Highly unlikely, over so many life times?

    Furthermore one would only write a praise to Dorje Shugden out of deep reverence and appreciation. What person would write a powerful prayer to Dorje Shugden if they did not think it was beneficial especially a high lama like the dalai lama?

  39. Mark on Mar 2, 2015 at 4:41 pm

    It’s the same scenario: some people used to compose prayers to you, also.
    But now…

  40. Jesse on Mar 2, 2015 at 11:07 am

    the picture of His Eminence the 1st Domo Geshe Rinpoche is probably the scariest thing I’ve ever seen!

  41. sandra on Mar 2, 2015 at 5:17 am

    Nice article and good arguements (for debate sake) by your Eminence. The pictures accompanied go very well with the article.

  42. Vinnie Tan on Mar 1, 2015 at 6:11 pm

    It is indeed impossible for the Dalai Lama now and the Dalai Lama during the young days or previous incarnations to have different mindstream. As they are all the Dalai Lama.

    I too agree that it is impossible for the Dalai Lama to be wrong by composing the prayers to Dorje Shugden not only once, but twice. Once during the 5th Dalai Lama’s time, and once during the 14th Dalai Lama’s time. It is also impossible for the lineage gurus to all be wrong about Dorje Shugden. If that is so, then the lineage that we are getting now is also not pure but it is wrong as well. Since the lineage lamas like Ling Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Pabongka Rinpoche are all wrong in practising Dorje Shugden practice, means the teachings that are given would be wrong as well.

    Since Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche are the Dalai Lama’s guru, then it would make the Dalai Lama wrong as well. Reason being that the Dalai Lama has gone through teaching by high Shugden monks. It would make him wrong as well.

    With that, it would also make Domo Geshe Rinpoche wrong, and he would not be seen by the Dalai Lama as Je Tsongkhapa. If Dalai Lama really saw him and recognise him as a high lama, then that would make the Dalai Lama once again wrong. This is because, how can the Dalai Lama recognise a Shugden lama to be highly attained when it is said that through Dorje Shugden practice one would go to the three lower realms? It just does not make any sense at all.

    Personally, I believe that the ban is being manifested by the Dalai Lama to see how would people be reacting based on the ban. I feel that through the ban we can see how ugly the human nature is when not being controlled and changed. There are so many people that hide behind things to do nasty acts and also defame others due to this. Even to the extend of threatening others just because they feel that it is correct to be doing so in order to stop Shugden practitioners from doing their practices.

    From here, you can not only see how shallow the human nature is, but also how deep into samsara we have fallen.

    If the ban does not act as a form of manifestation, then why did the 5th Dalai Lama together with the 14th Dalai Lama both composed prayers for Dorje Shugden. Even so, why did the 5th Dalai Lama even hand crafted a famous statue of Dorje Shugden?It just does not make any sense for the ban if we do agree that the Dalai Lama has the same mind stream with the previous incarnations and current incarnation.

  43. Patsy on Mar 1, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    Thank you, Rinpoche, for sharing this informative post on Dorje Shugden which will help clear many doubts of others who are uncertain about Dorje Shugden. There is no doubt that the Dalai Lama showed great respect and composed the prayers to Dorje Shugden in Dungkar monastery. This is clear evidence that Dorje Shugden is an Enlightened Being. I like Rinpoche’s logic on mindstream and that attainments cannot go backwards thus it is illogical for the Dalai Lama to acknowledge and made prayers to Dorje Shugden and later denounces HIM as a spirit.

    I hope that those who have negative views of Dorje Shugden will read and understand better on the real truth instead of condemning for the wrong reasons.

  44. Carmen Koo on Mar 1, 2015 at 2:24 am

    Dear Rinpoche,

    Thank you for more teachings and logical explanations to help us think further and deeper on this subject.

    I agree with what Rinpoche hypothesizes. How can attainments suddenly disappear? Since the Dalai Lama’s mindstream is the same, and attainments cannot disappear, it is impossible that suddenly the Dalai Lama backtracks on what he once regarded as superior and now presents to the public inconsistencies to examine this “mistake” he made. By the same logic, if really, what Dalai Lama presents forth is right, that he had indeed made a “mistake” in his worship and regard of Dorje Shugden, then it shows that attainments can falter. And if gaining attainments is the foundation to propel one towards achieving enlightenment and if it is ephemeral, that would thus mean that the state of enlightenment is transient as well because the foundation to it is impermanent. So all that Buddha taught would completely be thrown out of the window, because, by the same logic, Buddha’s attainments could have faltered as well so, all that Buddha taught, could be based on mistakes He made too! That would be very scary. But of course we all know that isn’t the case. 🙂

    Examples such as that given of Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s unmistaken reincarnations returning, it proves that practising Dorje Shugden does NOT bring one to the three lower realms, as opposed to when you worship a spirit, or practice something which causes suffering to others and destroys the doctrine of Buddha Dharma and creating wrong views, which would all definitely take one to the lower realms. But since highly realised lamas like Domo Geshe Rinpoche have returned in perfect form and conditions, it destroys the notion that Dorje Shugden is spirit worship and harmful to one because they had spent their lives spreading Dorje Shugden, and propagating the Dharma in its most authentic form.

    Additionally, like what Dalai Lama said in his prayers, where Dalai Lama enthrones Dorje Shugden as the “supreme collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities and requests to grant siddhis” (attainments), shows that Dorje Shugden is fully enlightened to guide one to achieving attainments in one’s spiritual path towards enlightenment otherwise why would Dalai Lama, in his praise, request Dorje Shugden to grant attainments when Dorje Shugden was not able to to begin with? And if Dalai Lama would humble himself and write a praise to request Dorje Shugden to grant siddhis, Dalai Lama is infact, in his deepest humility, portraying this being as being much more attained than he himself is and is proving that Dorje Shugden is enlightened to be able to grant siddhis because Dorje Shugden has already gained all attainments needed to reach the state of enlightenment.

  45. Low KHJB on Mar 1, 2015 at 1:19 am

    Thank you Rinpoche for the sharing on The 14th Dalai Lama’s prayer to Dorje Shugden.With the endorsement of so many Highly attained masters and Dalai Lama in the past and present.We have very clear and documented proof that Dorje Shugden is definitely an Enlightened Protector of Dharma and not an simple wrathful spirit as claimed by many.

    It would not make sense for highly attained dharma masters who hold their vows to worship a lowly spirit in order to gain bodhichitta.
    As far as I know,only those that are bound by attachment to greed and power, worship spirits in order to gain materialistic selfish gains .

    We certainly hope the ban and misunderstanding on the Dorje Shugden could be lifted in the nearest future.In order for more people to gain access to such to such beneficial practice. In order for those who seek a swift and compassionate protector, Dorje Shugden, to aid and lead them towards the path of enlightenment.

  46. Beatrix Ooi on Feb 28, 2015 at 6:43 pm

    From what I have observed and witnessed with my own eyes, Dorje Shugden is definitely not a harmful ‘spirit’. I have met so many people whose lives were literally saved by this great Buddha, and I have even heard stories of His miraculous power, there’s NO WAY that He will harm people. Having to say that, I’m not saying His Holiness the Dalai Lama is wrong and I’m right, of course not. His Holiness is an enlightened being, and sometimes enlightened beings can see things that we can’t see. His Holiness could have implemented the ban to serve a greater purpose, who knows..? But of course, this is just my personal opinion. Despite of these rumours, critisism, schisms etc, I will be loyal to my protector because I only believe what I see with my own eyes.

    • Dylan Lim on Feb 28, 2015 at 7:46 pm

      Pardon me. The Dalai Lama is not an enlightened being. He is a learned human being. If he is oredi enlightened, he would have broken the cycle and attained nirvana instead of being reincarnated again right? Cheers.

      • Beatrix Ooi on Mar 5, 2015 at 5:29 am

        Dear Dylan,

        So sorry for my late reply, have been quite busy with my work.
        From an ordinary view, it would seem that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is an ordinary monk or a highly learned one. That is because we cannot recognise what enlightenment is. The Buddha Himself said that He would return as Gurus. So if the Buddha is enlightened and returned as the Guru, wouldn’t the Guru also be enlightened? Although outwardly He may look like an “ordinary Guru”. I hope you find my answer or rather opinion useful 🙂 Thank you 🙂 Cheers!

    • Beatrix Ooi on Feb 28, 2015 at 7:47 pm

      Here are some of my thoughts:

      1) Rinpoche mentioned that mindstream and attainments will not go backwards. So when HHDL announced that Dorje Shugden is not enlightened, His statement contradicts what He did in this lifetime – He composed a prayer to Dorje Shugden. So why praises Dorje Shugden on one hand, and denounces Him on the other hand?

      2) There’s another statement that says, if we practised Dorje Shugden, we will go into three lower realms. It doesn’t make sense, what about High Lamas like HH Trijang Rinpoche and Domo Geshe Rinpoche? They reincarnated as humans and are living amongst us today.

      3) This article has made people realised even better about the fact that HHDL is actually contradicting himself, but definitely not in such a way to put HH down. It will make people think why is the ban implemented by HH when He Himself who had also written a prayer for Dorje Shugden. And some who have affinity, I think they will realise that there’s a higher purpose behind the ban.

      4) I just learnt that Domo Geshe Rinpoche’s body was actually embalmed but not cremated. And in the article, it says that only the bodies of Dalai Lamas and Panchen Lamas are allowed to be embalmed. I think that this is quite self-explanatory, Domo Geshe Rinpoche who practises Dorje Shugden for so many lifetimes is not an ordinary Lama. Its also sad to learn that His holy body was destroyed in the cultural revolution.

      5) I’m awed by the fact that in 1912, when the 13th Dalai Lama returned from India and stopped at Domo Rinpoche’s area, HH saw Domo Geshe Rinpoche as Je Tsongkhapa himself while the others don’t. I find this very fascinating because this was how HH viewed Domo Geshe Rinpoche, its very touching.

      • Li Kim on Mar 5, 2015 at 12:29 am

        Dear Beatirx,

        Your thoughts are so well expressed. I have learnt reading your comments. Thank you.

  47. Pastor David Lai on Feb 28, 2015 at 6:38 pm

    Dear Rinpoche,

    Thank you for sharing this precious post on Shugden and clearing the doubts that people might have over the nature of Dorje Shugden. It is very clear that the Dalai Lama revered Dorje Shugden to be an emanation of Manjushri during his stay at Dungkar monastery. It is clear that the Dalai Lama composed that prayer out of admiration of Shugden’s qualities and of the accuracy of the Dungkar oracle.

    I have read in other sources that the Dungkar oracle was very famous for the accuracy of the predictions. There is also another source about Domo Geshe Rinpoche and the Dungkar oracle and that is Alexander David-Neel’s book, the Way of the White Clouds. It was written at a time when Tibet was relatively unknown in the West and Domo Geshe Rinpoche was described in such a way that he became the archetype of Tibetan lamas. It is one of the few books of that generation to perpetuate the mystique of Tibetan Lamas. Many Westerners have encountered Buddhism by reading this famous classic.

    I love and agree with Rinpoche’s line of logic with regards to Dalai Lama and Shugden. I think that the Dalai Lama is somehow working with Dorje Shugden to spread Buddhism in the world despite what it may appears right now. What it is, I will not give up Shugden as I have only received the benefits and don’t see how he could be a spirit. No spirit can take trance as a lama and give teachings, advice, rituals and initiations. Dorje Shugden must be enlightened and the incarnation of the High Lamas of Dulzin Drakpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen.

    • shugdenmasive on Mar 18, 2015 at 12:33 am

      get a grip pastor lai , mr bear , way of the white clouds is by lama govinda .What else have you got wrong ?

      • Pastor David Lai on Mar 18, 2015 at 12:40 am

        Thank you for your correction and an opportunity to practice patience.

  48. Datuk May on Feb 28, 2015 at 4:26 pm

    As Dorje Shugden Practitioners, we would say our Sadhana daily and at times due to time limitation we will do a shorter version. When doing a shorter version, I would also say the 14th Dalai Lama prayers to Dorje Shugden as it encompasses the total essence of the whole Sadhana. It is very well versed with all essence for a practitioner to recite.

    With the very clear explanation of the mindstream of the Dalai Lamas, incarnations after incarnations of Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara, by Rinpoche, I believe the Ban is of a purpose higher than what I being unattained can foresee or envisage.

    But with the facts mentioned in this article, it is in my mind that worshipping Dorje Shugden can only bestow merits and siddhis on me.

    This article further enhances my faith and belief in Rinpoche and Dorje Shugden. With much appreciation.

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  • Alice Tay
    Monday, Jul 25. 2016 12:50 AM

  • Stella Cheang
    Saturday, Jul 23. 2016 03:28 AM
    Beautiful Mother Tara had arrived in the holy land of Kechara Forest Retreat. It is very auspicious to have Mother Tara here, through the blessing of His Eminence the 25th Tsem Rinpoche to grace us. She is very famous and popularly known for her ability to save people from different disasters. Mother Tara is also known to be efficacious in removing eight fears, namely : Fear of fire (anger, Fear of imprisonment (avarice), Fear of lions (pride), Fear of floods (attachment), Fear of elephants (wrath), Fear of demons (doubt), Fear of snakes (envy) and lastly, Fear of robbers.

    I wish that many people will pay a visit to venerate Mother Tara in Kechara Forest Retreat as well as to get blessing from her.
  • Stella Cheang
    Saturday, Jul 23. 2016 03:18 AM
    Beautiful Mother Tara had arrived in the holy land of Kechara Forest Retreat. It is very auspicious to have Mother Tara here, through the blessing of His Eminence the 25th Tsem Rinpoche to grace us. She is very famous and popularly known for her ability to save people from different disasters. Mother Tara is also known to be efficacious in removing eight fears, namely : Fear of fire (anger, Fear of imprisonment (avarice), Fear of lions (pride), Fear of floods (attachment), Fear of elephants (wrath), Fear of demons (doubt), Fear of snakes (envy) and lastly, Fear of robbers.

    I wish that many people will pay a visit to venerate Mother Tara in Kechara Forest Retreat as well as to get blessing from her.
  • sonny tan
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 11:09 AM
    sonny tan on Jul 22, 2016 at 11:08 am
    Thank you Wei Tan for this invaluable insight on happiness, it is rather very subjective because happiness can be experienced and felt at different levels. For instance happiness when seeing your child becomes a champion in a race may differ from jumping with joy when one strikes a lottery. The intensity, reason and degree are however difficult to equate perhaps it is the depth and how long it last and the exhilarating factors following this eruption of happiness.
    Happiness is an intangible commodity when heightened by jubilation would linger on in a different manner and the underlying factors surrounding it and the continuity of it may perhaps differs on the time, place, temperament, environment and the people one is sharing the happiness with. Therefore, happiness is hard to define in terms of language but can only be felt momentarily.
    What is happiness then? It is just a fleeting pleasure of the mind; one cannot grasp it in the hand and hold it for long, it would ultimately dissipates and the after effect depends on one’s mental frame of mind. However, on another note it would generate positivity which would bring about a healthier mind and body.
  • Joy
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 07:03 AM

    This is a rare and precious opportunity for candles to be offered on your behalf at the private residence of His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche. The offering of light to the Three Jewels has great benefits for one’s mind including gaining clarity and intelligence, the acceleration of realisations, and greater understanding and wisdom. This exclusive light offering is also ideal for those who do not have a personal altar or are unable to make light offerings themselves.
  • Joy
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 07:02 AM
    CHECK OUT >>>PHOTOS ON THE GO<<>> Venerable Geshe Puntsok speaks so well in both Tibetan and English: and
  • Joy
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 07:01 AM
    NEW BLOG POST>>> Gyara Rinpoche Gives Dorje Shugden Sogtae

    Yangting Dechen Ling, also known as Shugden Monastery, is thriving under the leadership of its current abbot, Venerable Geshe Tenzin Peljor, and has produced many illustrious and eminent scholar-monks including H.E. Zemey Rinpoche, Venerable Geshe Tendar Rinpoche and H.H. Yongyal Rinpoche.

    Daocheng County has a population of 32,450 of which 70%-80% are Dorje Shugden practitioners. There are many Dorje Shugden lamas and geshes in Yading too. Therefore, it is no surprise that through word of mouth, many flocked to attend Gyara Rinpoche’s teachings in Yading.

    ***Note: The Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) has on many occasions stressed that Dorje Shugden practitioners are a minority. Looking at the thousands of Tibetans who gathered at Yangting Dechen Ling Monastery, it is not difficult to spot the glaring inaccuracy of the CTA’s claim!***

  • Jason
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 02:52 AM
    This inspiring articles show that many nuns did contribute their compassion, kindness and love to society by applying Buddhism practices. Buddhism practices can be adopt by everyone without limitation on age,sex, races and etc. I feel fortunate because can know so many nuns or female practitioners who I never heard before.Everyone has Buddha nature and practice Buddha’s teachings will lead us to enlightened.
    Thanks Rinpoche for sharing such informative and wonderful article.

    With folded hands,
  • Stella Cheang
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 12:13 AM
    Very heartwarming to see lovely and hardworking Kecharians demonstrated the teaching of His Eminence the 25th Tsem Rinpoche. We see Rinpoche’s loving kindness through these virtuous actions. Thank you Kecharians.

    Thank you Rinpoche for sharing with us the good work of Kecharians.
  • Stella Cheang
    Friday, Jul 22. 2016 12:06 AM
    I am no expert in art but the display of painting skill by this artist is truly mesmerizing. He successfully depicted different expressions of Buddha at different circumstances. The ones that capture my attention most are (1) as Buddha shaved his hair, (2) as Buddha practiced asceticism, and (3) as Buddha gave his first teaching to the 5 disciples.

    Thank you Rinpoche for this sharing that brings images of Buddha vividly alive.
  • Stella Cheang
    Thursday, Jul 21. 2016 11:47 PM
    Absolutely encouraging to read the stories of 24 nuns and female practitioners, who break through or circumvent the religious traditions built for a patriarchal world. Aside from the biological difference, female possess the exact same (if not better) tenacity when it comes to will power and determination. And the 24 stories here show us exactly how far women can go against all odds to demonstrate the strength of their spiritual conviction. It is truly inspirational for me and I hope it is too for other fellow female.

    Thank you Rinpoche for this collection of inspiring personalities for us to look up to.
  • Lin Mun
    Thursday, Jul 21. 2016 11:15 PM
    The Art showing the story of Budddha Shakyamuni is so beautiful. Thank you Rinpoche for sharing this piece of art with us.
  • Pastor Shin
    Thursday, Jul 21. 2016 05:12 PM
    “Let go of all attachments.

    Let go of identity to family, name, race and country.

    Let go of anger because there is a cause and you created it.

    Let go of fear because until we leave samsara, fear never ends.

    Be kind to everyone.

    Be kind to those who work hard to benefit others.

    Do not let small things detract the mind.

    Work hard and achieve within the dharma.

    ~ Tsem Rinpoche”
  • samfoonheei
    Thursday, Jul 21. 2016 03:17 PM
    Thank you Rinpoche and Martin for sharing.
    Well i remember when i was young i used to follow my mother to temples.I dont really understand anything at all just follow what she does. Really not sure if prayers do work but as i grow older i got a chance to understand through reading more Buddhism books and Rinpoche blog. I begin to know that prayers does work when we have the karma or merits. I can understand more too through Rinpoche’s teachings, pujas , Sadhanas and Dharma Work.There is still a lot more to learn as i am new to it.
    Thanks again with folded hands.
  • sonny tan
    Thursday, Jul 21. 2016 12:05 PM
    sonny tan on Jul 21, 2016 at 12:05 pm
    It’s indeed heartwarming to see Pastor Yek Yee and some Kecharians responding to the plight of the government workers during such trying times. It is reflective of the so many years of tutelage, guidance and love from Rinpoche’s teaching that we witness events now culminating in efforts being extended without being asked and doing it effortlessly and wholeheartedly.
    Kecharian Pastors are our hopes of our many future generations to come and we pray that this compassionate duty, care and love can be emulated by all regardless of race, creed or color. I would like to take this opportunity with my palms closed together in front of my heart humbly bow and pay homage to Rinpoche for your selfless, caring, compassionate love towards all of mankind. And it is our fervent hope that Rinpoche would continually guide us and we wish you a very, very long life and pray that you would continue your stay here with us in Malays

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Tsem Rinpoche

What Am I Writing Now


The Unknown

The Known and unknown are both feared,
Known is being comfortable and stagnant,
The unknown may be growth and opportunities,
One shall never know if one fears the unknown more than the known.
Who says the unknown would be worse than the known?
But then again, the unknown is sometimes worse than the known. In the end nothing is known unless we endeavour,
So go pursue all the way with the unknown,
because all unknown with familiarity becomes the known.
~Tsem Rinpoche

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7 hours ago
This is a beautiful portrait
7 hours ago
Sacred art work on Vajra Yogini
2 days ago
Never forget to do our Vajra Yogini practice. We can lose our money, we can lose our friends, we can lose our position, we can lose our family, we can lose our wife, we can lose our husband and we can lose our materialistic possession because in the end we will lose all outer objects anyway, but NEVER lose our Vajra Yogini practice. Everything lost is meant to be lost because we are in samsara and whatever we enjoy in samsara will not last and will be lost. It is their nature. Never waste time, energy and keep procrastinating, but do our Vajra Yogini practice intensely and strongly and be firm. Samsara never grants permanence and happiness, but Vajra Yogini's practice will hand the universe and all the joys within it to you.-Tsem Rinpoche
4 days ago
LADRANG LIGHT OFFERING FUND A rare and precious opportunity for candles to be offered on your behalf at the private residence of His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche. The offering of light to the Three Jewels has great benefits for one's mind including gaining clarity and intelligence, the acceleration of realisations, and greater understanding and wisdom. This exclusive light offering is also ideal for those who do not have a personal altar or are unable to make light offerings themselves.
4 days ago
Nice friends who help each other in Dharma works.
5 days ago
Venerable Geshe Puntsok speaks so well in both Tibetan and English: and
5 days ago
Beautiful image of Avalokitesvara who has spoken before. Housed in Ladakh
5 days ago
Our Panglung Kuten taking trance of Dorje Shugden in Tibet where he is greatly sought after
5 days ago
Beautiful painting of Atisha
6 days ago
Beautiful Tara has arrived in Kechara Forest Retreat. See many more pictures:
1 week ago
Gorgeous Buddha carved into the mountain in China
2 weeks ago
Beautiful Dorje Shugden Gyenze statue by Kechara available at
2 weeks ago
I like this Buddha image very much
2 weeks ago
Beautiful Buddha in the Bodhgaya enlightenment stupa
2 weeks ago
Pastor Lanse, contact her if you have questions..she is kind and helpful.
2 weeks ago
2 weeks ago
Buddha sat under this tree when he gained enlightenment
2 weeks ago
Buddha Goddess Dukkar. Beautiful image.
2 weeks ago
Such a nice retreat house for extended meditations and prayers.. ..incredible. With trees, sunshine, pond, lotus leaves and purple flowers. I love this whole setting. Even creepers growing on the roof of the house. How perfect this place is for me.
3 weeks ago
Tsem Rinpoche brings home Dharma and this was his first day home.
3 weeks ago
White Tara mantra in Sanskrit
3 weeks ago
Beautiful thangka of Buddha of wisdom Saraswati
3 weeks ago
Beautiful image of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen in Kechara
3 weeks ago
A beautiful and blessed Dharma family. May Lord Manjushri guide, bless and keep them close to Him in this and all lives. Tsem Rinpoche
3 weeks ago
One of the things I love about my Guru is that his teachings are never dry and far from boring. Rinpoche would joke, poke fun and tease but there is always an insightful, if not profound, teaching in each joke or teasing. I consider myself very blessed to have found a Guru who has the skillful means to drum some Dharma into this numbskull of mine. -From Sharon Ong
3 weeks ago
I really like outdoor Buddhas.
3 weeks ago
Dorje Shugden takes trance of the senior Choyang Dulzin Kuten in Gaden Monastery.
3 weeks ago
His Holiness Kyabje Zong Choktrul Rinpoche sitting on my lap during a teaching in Dharamsala. I am so happy to hold the reincarnation of my precious teacher. Tsem Rinpoche
3 weeks ago
This is a beautiful picture of Choktrul Zemey Rinpoche. May he bless all of us and manifest the teaching of Tsongkapa's doctrine again.
3 weeks ago
This is really nicely done. Welcome!
3 weeks ago
Good friends with good motivation coupled with a kind heart to be of benefit to others is time worth spent. Life is over so fast and anytime it can be snuffed out, so therefore do dharma, practice dharma, and engage in dharma. Tsem Rinpoche.
1 month ago
Sacred Manjushri Kumara 9th Century Pala Dynasty India
1 month ago
This sacred White Tara is on the Bodhgaya enlightenment stupa marking the very spot Lord Buddha achieved enlightenment.
1 month ago
Myself at the sacred lake at Dromo Geshe Rinpoche's residence
1 month ago
Myself at Dromo Geshe Rinpoche's house where there is a sacred lake on his property. The Five Sister Protector Goddesses abide at this lake. I am making offerings to the divinities in the lake here. Many contractors or workers who come to do work often observe 'Asian ladies' dressed very well walking around the perimeter of the lake and there are no Asian ladies living nearby at all. Tsem Rinpoche
1 month ago
Myself sitting at a lake where Bigfoots are often sighted in Willow Creek, California. This area in Northern California is a hot spot for Bigfoot sightings for hundreds of years till present day. We spent the afternoon there and we did our sadhanas and enjoy the BEAUTIFUL cool/dry weather (no humidity) and you don't sweat. The water was clear and sparkling. It is one of the most beautiful places I have been too and I can easily live there in this area. It was hard to leave this place. Tsem Rinpoche
1 month ago
Such a beautiful conservatory. How I would love to have a room like this among woodlands.
1 month ago
Another beautiful Gyenze statue arrives made by Kechara
1 month ago
My Mumu boy is super duper cute. I love you Mumu.
2 months ago
Pastor Adeline leads a holy and beneficial Tsongkapa retreat group in Kechara Forest Retreat today. Very nice to see this. I like it when our Pastors and senior students encourage, nurture others into the dharma. Tsem Rinpoche
2 months ago
Images of the Buddha are always a great blessing
2 months ago
Beautifully painted Shakyamuni the Buddha
2 months ago
Nice painting of Lord Tsongkapa
2 months ago
Beautiful painting of His Holiness Panchen Rinpoche the omniscient.
2 months ago
This is a traditional thangka painting of the Karma Gadri style, which was especially commissioned by Tashi Mannox on the rarely depicted great calligrapher and scholar Thönmi Sambhota. Sambhota is a historical figure responsible for developing the foundation of the Tibetan writing systems in the seventh century A.D, which form the basis of the Tibetan language today.
2 months ago
Spectacular outdoor Tsongkapa in Mongolia
2 months ago
BEAUTIFUL Tara statue! Magnificent
2 months ago
Vajradharma. In Vajra Yogini's tantra, we always visualize our root teacher in this form. We should see him in his divine form. 
Click on "View All Photos" above to view more images

Videos On The Go

Please click on the images to watch video
  • Dorje Shugden oracle taking trance in China
    2 months ago
    Dorje Shugden oracle taking trance in China
  • Dorje Shugden oracle taking trance in China
    2 months ago
    Dorje Shugden oracle taking trance in China
  • Taking Trance
    2 months ago
    Taking Trance
  • See what humans can do
    5 months ago
    See what humans can do
  • Shocking undercover video shows animal abuse at 'humane cert
    5 months ago
    Shocking undercover video shows animal abuse at 'humane cert
  • Video reveals what goes on inside 'humane slaughterhouse' in
    5 months ago
    Video reveals what goes on inside 'humane slaughterhouse' in
  • People can really live their lives to save others. This is a good way to live. Beautiful video.
    5 months ago
    People can really live their lives to save others. This is a good way to live. Beautiful video.
  • -
    7 months ago
    All beings have feelings and do not want pain, to be hurt or harmed. Therefore we must respect this and not harm animals. See this video how this man has made good friends with a special fish who comes when he rings for the fish. Touching. Tsem Rinpoche
  • -
    10 months ago
    HH the Dalai Lama prays with HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. Such a beautiful video of His Holiness Dalai Lama, His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and His Holiness Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche (Very exalted high Nyingma lama) are all praying together. In the background you see a young Kyabje Lati Rinpoche too. So beautiful. This is how it was before the ban. All the sects and high lamas were superbly harmonious. After the Dorje Shugden ban things changed for the worse. May the ban be released soon. Tsem Rinpoche
  • Nice Dorje Shugden rock painting
    10 months ago
    Nice Dorje Shugden rock painting
  • His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche teaches the truth of life and our impeding death.
    11 months ago
    His Holiness Kyabje Zong Rinpoche teaches the truth of life and our impeding death.
  • A kind message from Mr. Tsering Wangchuk to me. Thank you so much. Tsem Rinpoche
    11 months ago
    A kind message from Mr. Tsering Wangchuk to me. Thank you so much. Tsem Rinpoche
  • Mr Chatreng Yeshe's message to me (Part 1)
    11 months ago
    Mr Chatreng Yeshe's message to me (Part 1)
  • Mr Chatreng Yeshe's message to me (Part 2)
    11 months ago
    Mr Chatreng Yeshe's message to me (Part 2)
  • His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche accepts Long Life puja
    1 years ago
    His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche accepts Long Life puja


A section for you to clarify your Dharma questions with Kechara’s esteemed pastors.

Just post your name and your question below and one of our pastors will provide you with an answer.

Scroll down and click on "View All Questions" to view archived questions.

View All Questions


10 hours ago
Sleeping meditation for the students of KSDS to help them calm down and prepare them for the next lesson. Stella Cheang, KSDS
10 hours ago
Teacher Alice and teacher Victor were guiding the senior students on the script for year end performance. Stella Cheang, KSDS
10 hours ago
Teacher Lai was sitting together with the students for the musical and performance practice section at KSDS today. Stella Cheang, KSDS
10 hours ago
Teacher Ashley Yeo and the students of KSDS Class 2-4 years old. Stella Cheang, KSDS
10 hours ago
Teacher Jesvin and assistant teacher Bradley discussed the details about the class. Stella Cheang, KSDS
11 hours ago
Behind the scene of preparations and practice for KSDS Graduation 2016. Hang on there!! Victoria Lam KSDS
11 hours ago
Teacher Victor and Teacher Ray are always show care and compassionate teaching to the teenage kids. Victoria Lam KSDS
11 hours ago
Teacher Stella always used creativity and passionate to the kids of age group 2-4 years old. Victoria Lam KSDS
11 hours ago
Teacher Serena reciting mantra to the kids and guide them with patiently. Victoria Lam KSDS
11 hours ago
What is the best to nurture to the kids? Bring your kids and join us every Sunday, Kechara Sunday Dharma School KSDS . Victoria Lam KSDS
19 hours ago
Another Special Birthday Cake From Customer with 4D - Chin Kia
19 hours ago
Tonight Charity Banquet Event @ 50 Tables - Chin Kia
Most of the kids are enjoyed for the singing session. KSDS, Alice Tay
Besides the dharma teachings, there was also an outdoor activity for the KSDS students age 9-10 years old. KSDS, Alice Tay
KSDS students are happy and excited to participate the animal liberation. KSDS, Alice Tay
Nice dharma sharing by Teacher Lai. KSDS, Alice Tay
The youngest group age 2-4 KSDS students are allowed by the teacher to draw on the floor. Clean up the place after the drawing. This is one of the training to the kids to follow the teacher's instructions strictly. KSDS, Alice Tay
2 days ago
3 ladies are preparing the menu cover. #function #events #fullmoon #birthday #wedding #celebration ~ ~ Guat Hee
2 days ago
Helping the guest to prepare the candle holder for tomorrow event. #fund raising #buddhism #merit #vegetarian ~ ~ Guat Hee
2 days ago
Tonight wedding dinner event @ PERFECT HAPPINESS - Chin Kia
2 days ago
Green Curry Spaghetti + Drink Of The Day Only "RM 16.90++" Valid at Kechara Oasis Viva Home - Chin Kia
2 days ago
birthday cake from customer ~ is so colored full - Chin Kia
2 days ago
Manjushri Retreat in Kechara Forest - shared by Pastor Antoinette
2 days ago
Manjushri Retreat in Kechara Forest Retreat - shared by Pastor Antoinette
2 days ago
Puja house staffs and volunteer doing social media and blog chat at Wisdom Hall, Kechara Forest Retreat (23/7/16) - Jill Yam





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Click to watch my talk about Dorje Shugden....